Poor root penetration on vertical fillet weld with E6013 rods

I'm doing an evening course in the UK refreshing my stick welding, which has gone rusty through lack of use. Two of the test pieces have a vertical fillet (T-joint and lap on mild steel 6mm plate).

The college provides 2.4mm E6013 rods and the machine's a Citoarc (Oerlikon) welding DCRP (electrode positive).

I'm finding it difficult to get a good penetration/fusion stringer bead right in the corner of the joint: penetration is low and a very small bead of slag/porosity seems to get trapped right in the weld root so that when a small section is cut out for destructive testing, there's no/inadequate penetration along the root edge - i.e.no fusion at the root. (See photo)

Given a choice, I'd try putting the root run in with a 6011 electrode as it'd be deeper penetrating and there's far less slag to get forced into the root; however, I'd like to solve this problem with the 6013.

I've found that the best results are with a vertical-up run with the electrode trailing slightly i.e.a slope angle of 95 to 100 degrees. I guess this is because the slag is forced away from the root rather than into it. On the other hand, a leading electrode angle always shows a pinhole at the root when the specimen is sectioned.

I haven't yet tried laying the root run with a vertical down run, which, again, should stop the slag being forced ahead of the weld pool. But before I give that a go, I'd appreciate any advice from this forum.

Many thanks

Martin

What current you using Martin? And can you confirm this is a vertical weld? What are your results like on a 2F fillet?

Some 6013s simply wont do it. The only way would be a smaller rod with the juice turned up. Also vd usually produces less pen (unless its a specialist rod).

Sorry to hijack...
Al... I wasnt aware that there were specialist rods that provide adequate penetration vertical down. Easily available? If they are available, why weld vertical up?

CEL rods Paul, Stoving.

matt1978 said:

CEL rods Paul, Stoving.

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I know that cellulosics are very agressive, still didnt know they would go vd though

Welderpaul said:

Sorry to hijack...
Al... I wasnt aware that there were specialist rods that provide adequate penetration vertical down. Easily available? If they are available, why weld vertical up?

Click to expand...

There are 6013s specifically designed for vd. The problem is they can only do vd or flat. The benefit of v up is bigger weld and more heat. The vd welds tend to be thin wall stuff to avoid distortion (there are also some for stainless which are even better at avoiding distortion).

http://content.lincolnelectric.com/en/pdfs/products/literature/SUPRA.pdf
This used to be a good one but they spoiled it by "rationalisation" but it still goes Vd (ignore some of the other claims)

This was another http://www.wecs-ltd.co.uk/index.php...facturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=26
but it looks like they have forgotten Vd. Fro used to sell this to Messer and they branded it SuperBlue. It was the best 6013 on the market bar none but they might also have done some rationalising.

I think there is also a Filarc (Esab) product

The low hys have a special designation E7048 which is specifically Vd.

I used to have rep that sold those superblues, excellent rod had forgotten about them TBH, said rep disappeared along with the supply of rods...

Those Lincolns are the claims about rust tolerance true, or some marketing B/S?

some people whip side to side on a vertical up (so would i) as i expect you are doing or you can start on the left plate, then into the corner (where your inclusion is) over to the right hand plate then back to the left plate. a motion which is triangular in plan. i would usually angle my rod upwards slightly also.
i would like to try cutting one of my samples (not that im any kind of professional)as you have done to see if i get the same inclusion.
if you work it out let us know
cheers

How are the rest of the class managing?.is the lecturer offering any advice?

I had a similar problem.........

Is your fit up good ? Grind both plates to remove the scale and make sure there's no gap at the corner of the join (the pieces we use were guillotined and uneven - this can act as a slag trap)

Have you done a Macro etch to see if you're penetrating into the plate ?

The weld profile looks a bit convex - might be moving too slowly or juice not high enough ? Mine got better with a flatter profile.

I'd be tempted to up the amps and try and move a bit faster. Or try a 3.2mm rod which obviously allows more current and keep the speed of travel up. Have you tried a run electrode negative to get more heat into the joint ?

Good luck- practice and time will sort it out !

Garreth

Drains said:

What current you using Martin? And can you confirm this is a vertical weld? What are your results like on a 2F fillet?

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Hi, yes it is a vertical weld, and I was using about 75 Amps indicated. At higher current the bead was 'blobby' as the weld pool got pulled down by gravity.

I've not tried the 2F position as this is a second level course i.e. vertical or horizontal-vertical.

Martin

Thanks Al, very informative as usual.

decepticon said:

some people whip side to side on a vertical up (so would i) as i expect you are doing or you can start on the left plate, then into the corner (where your inclusion is) over to the right hand plate then back to the left plate. a motion which is triangular in plan. i would usually angle my rod upwards slightly also.
i would like to try cutting one of my samples (not that im any kind of professional)as you have done to see if i get the same inclusion.
if you work it out let us know
cheers

Click to expand...

Thanks. I have tried the triangular weave, putting in the root at the same time as the cap (rather than an root stringer first followed by a capping weave as a second pass) but again I found that the root suffered from inclusions and poor penetration.

Martin

i would try more power and keep the ark short

What juice are you using?


Describe the faults.

And your using 6013's im try 7018's (Low Hydrogen)

snowcat said:

I used to have rep that sold those superblues, excellent rod had forgotten about them TBH, said rep disappeared along with the supply of rods...

Those Lincolns are the claims about rust tolerance true, or some marketing B/S?

Click to expand...

maybe slightly better because the arc is stronger.

Do you remember what company were selling the superblues? Im not sure if the ones in the link are the same. Im pretty sure the old ones went Vd but the link only shows V up

TechnicAl said:

maybe slightly better because the arc is stronger.

Do you remember what company were selling the superblues? Im not sure if the ones in the link are the same. Im pretty sure the old ones went Vd but the link only shows V up

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I think it was Elmdale, but I'm not sure, we must be going back ten+ years, probably more as it was when inverters were just hitting the market, welding positional with those rods on an inverter was like reinventing the wheal....

Had a rep around today, touting truecraft electrodes, Lincolns apparently is that true???? he did me a deal to take 6 boxes but really he hadn't got a scooby on welding.... even there catalogue avoided and AWS no.s just descriptions, and guess what, one of the claims was high pen on rusty material??..... I'm curious on the origins of these rods, which is why iv bought some...

Truecraft from Spaldings?

If so yes they are Lincoln...Omnia 30 if 6013s

Use on DC- they are better than on +ve

TechnicAl said:

Truecraft from Spaldings?

If so yes they are Lincoln...Omnia 30 if 6013s

Use on DC- they are better than on +ve

Click to expand...

there the ones, never been any ware near Spalding's as iv always thought they peddled crap, but he gave me a good deal on abrasives so I thought id give the rods a go.... Iv grown a little tied of the bohler rep, and his messy divorce, and his custody battle..... not to mention his boss, targets etc.....