Gas price spreadsheet

klaatu · Nov 30, 2007

I created an Excel spreadsheet to help me make a decision on buying shielding gas for my car restoration project. While it's fairly specific to me, I thought it might be useful and/or interesting for others to look at. It's here:

Edit> New version from marknotgeorge:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tAo9x2FO_qy-e-_i0uhGspA&output=html

I estimated that I would need about 5000 litres of gas (Argon mix), and the spreadsheet shows how much that would cost using the four suppliers available to me here in Orkney - disposables, Adams Gas, BOC and Air Products, depending on whether the restoration takes 1, 2 or 3 years. The time taken has to be factored in because, for a low user over a long period of time, like myself, the rental on BOC and AP is the significant cost.

Apologies if the colours look a bit garish - I created it in Excel 2007 then saved it in pre-2007 format for compatibility, and the colours got changed.

Steve

marknotgeorge · Nov 30, 2007

I'd round up the figure in column G. Using the disposables as an example, you're gonna need just over 15 packs. (45 bottles!).

This becomes more important with the rental bottles, as you're going to need to factor in an extra collection fee.

klaatu · Nov 30, 2007

I could do that, I suppose, but then the 5000 litres estimate is a very rough guess anyway.

In any case, I decided to go with the big Air Products cylinder. I feel happier knowing I have lots of gas to play with, and I shouldn't need to go back for a refill at all (it involves a boat trip). The AP people have been so much more helpful than BOC.

Steve

marknotgeorge · Nov 30, 2007

I've had a fiddle for my own amusement. (ooer) I've rounded up the number of units needed, and modified the costings so I can see how much each option would cost up front. I've also added a cell for the amount of gas used. I've also extrapolated for over 3 years.

I've seen that Adams gas becomes cheaper the longer your project, as cylinder rental begins to bite on BOC and AP. Eventually disposables will become cheaper than rental cylinders, but they will always be more expesive than Adams. The only advantage disposables have is a lower upfront cost.

I suppose the next step would be calculating the gas used, possibly by using the length of weld, and the time taken to weld a metre.

irondarren · Nov 30, 2007

Now we are getting complicated the amount of gas used and time take to weld a mtr lol. Doesnt really matter to me, i use about 6 argo co2 a year, 2-3 pure argon, 6-8 oxygen and about 2-3 acetylene, wonder what it would cost me in disposables

marknotgeorge · Dec 1, 2007

The metre of weld business is only to help guestimate the amount of gas used. The spreadsheet's there to help the hobbyist car restorer work out the best method of getting welding gas for a single project.

You could always help offset the cost of the disposables by scrapping the empties. How much do 45 empty disposables weigh? :laughing:

I've put my modified spreadsheet here. I've added Energas to the list, and extrapolated to 6 years, among other adjustments. It's produced interesting results. Energas are cheaper than Adams, as long as the restoration doesn't go over 2 years. It's a pity that Energas aren't near Orkney! As it is, I'll be along to Energas when my bank charges from the Yorkshire come through.

If anyone other Argon mix suppliers want me to add them to the spreadsheet, I'd be happy to do so.

irondarren · Dec 1, 2007

It is all valid, to the diy er, especially when doing a one off resortation project. A new rear arch, a floor pan, 2 new sills for a restoration project say 5mtrs of welding in total. What is the cheapest go hire a bottle for a month, get it all done and pay 1 months rental, use disposables, or buy a bottle from the likes of energas etc. Be worth getting it right and asking malcom to give it, its own custom page

marknotgeorge · Dec 13, 2007

I've added Gasman's 10L bottle to the spreadsheet. It took some thinking on how to get the 1-6 years figures correct with the multi-year rental, but I think I got it right. Here's the link.

racer-john · Dec 18, 2007

BOC vs AP

klaatu said:
I could do that, I suppose, but then the 5000 litres estimate is a very rough guess anyway.

In any case, I decided to go with the big Air Products cylinder. I feel happier knowing I have lots of gas to play with, and I shouldn't need to go back for a refill at all (it involves a boat trip). The AP people have been so much more helpful than BOC.

Steve

Unfortunately here in Canada BOC have bought out AP, so we only have 3 suppliers, BOC, Praxair and Air Liquide.

JimM · Jan 13, 2008

Guys

I've recently got a Gasman 10l bottle and it's only filled to 130bar (ie same as Adams) so the spreadsheet as it stands will need tweaking (currently assumes 230bar fill)

HTH

Jim

marknotgeorge · Jan 15, 2008

JimM said:
Guys

I've recently got a Gasman 10l bottle and it's only filled to 130bar (ie same as Adams) so the spreadsheet as it stands will need tweaking (currently assumes 230bar fill)

HTH

Jim

Thanks for that, I've updated it.

marknotgeorge · Feb 26, 2008

The latest version's up now. Clicky. I knew that CLAIT+ course was useful for something...

Improvements:

Improvements to the formulas so it's easy to add new products.
Added Machine Mart 100l disposables.
Fixed the column and row headers so they stay visible when scrolling about.

If you want to add suppliers to the spreadsheet, PM me with the details. I need:

Either the cylinder capacity AND pressure, or the amount of gas in litres
Cylinder rental fees, if any. Let me know if fees are monthly, yearly or whatever.
Collection/delivery fees, if any.
Refill cost
Returnable deposit, if any

Also, please let me know if the prices include VAT or not.

EDIT: I've added the Air Liquide prices quoted to Wozz. Please note that the spreadsheet assumes that you'll be paying the cylider rental annually. You might be able to pay the rental monthly (or as AL told Wozz, quarterly), in which case the upfront costs will be lower than shown.

Johnny™ · Apr 17, 2008

the prices quoted here for AP are the lowest i could find anywhere for suppliers in ireland and Northern Ireland. AP seem to have a good network of suppliers.

As i said, for anyone in N.Ireland/Ireland you wont find a cheaper argoshield lite equivalent than AP couger if you get the forum special price. Personally i went for the 6.2 m3 bottle as it was more managable albeit alot more expensive to refill.

The last time i tried to move 80kgs around i put my back out

Whizzo1300 · Apr 25, 2008

Great spreadsheet - thanks. Does anyone have a phone number for Gasman? I'm not getting a reply to private PM. Cheers ...

Wozzaaah · Apr 25, 2008

I did have it but I lost it when I cleared my PM's out a while back
here's the details of which areas he covers. Your nearest collection point would be Swindon which is still a fair old trek for you.

Gasman said:
Just to clarify, we don't send cylinders via courier.

Don't get me wrong, It could work well for party helium hire but not for welding gases. IMO If you run out on a Friday then its going to be at least Tuesday until you get to wait in all day for a delivery (so you can return your empty) Also refills would work out v.expensive with the delivery/collection charge added.

Our outlets at presently in Gloucestershire, Manchester, Swindon, Andover, Basingstoke, Hereford & Portsmouth.
With hopefully more coming on board as soon as we find them

Whizzo1300 · Apr 25, 2008

Many thanks Woz ... Not as bad as Keygas in Wrexham. Had a chat with a very helpful guy there. OK right up to the point where he said they "we don't deliver ... but it's not far from Oxford ... just up the M42". WTF!! It's a 300 mile round trip :confused:

Do you happen to know if Gasman does anything bigger than 10L?

There's a BOC depot 400yds up the road. A 'Y' cylinder is starting look an attractive option (unless I cost my time at about 4 pence/hr). :vsad:

Rusty · Apr 25, 2008

Whizzo1300 said:
Many thanks Woz ... Not as bad as Keygas in Wrexham. Had a chat with a very helpful guy there. OK right up to the point where he said they "we don't deliver ... but it's not far from Oxford ... just up the M42". WTF!! It's a 300 mile round trip

Do you happen to know if Gasman does anything bigger than 10L?

There's a BOC depot 400yds up the road. A 'Y' cylinder is starting look an attractive option (unless I cost my time at about 4 pence/hr).

Have PM'd his number Whizzo, also some info i have from Gasman.

ROU = Right Of Use

10L cylinder (X size) 39.99 + vat for 3 years ROU
22.50 + vat Gas Fill
25.75 Returnable deposit

£99.17 Total inc vat

20L cylinder (Y size) 59.99 + vat for 3 years ROU
32.99 + vat Gas Fill
34.75 Returnable deposit

£144.00 Total inc vat

Whizzo1300 · Apr 29, 2008

Thanks Rusty. Spoke to Andy (Gasman). Very helpful. As warned by Woz it'll be a bit of a trek but he did mention he was trying to set up distribution in the Oxford area.

I don't know if the bloke at Complete Welding in Swindon was having a blond moment but he insisted the rental was £140+VAT for 3yrs (3x£39.99?). When I challenged the price he pleaded confusion but was adamant that's what they charge. It looks like going direct to Andy in Gloucester is the best option (120m round trip). Nice motorbike trip but I'm guessing that's not the best way to carry a pressurised cylinder :laughing:

Oh BTW - eventually got round to ordering a Portamig 185 from Weldequip today. Thanks to everyone who offered guidance.

English Steve · Apr 30, 2008

Oh BTW - eventually got round to ordering a Portamig 185 from Weldequip today. Thanks to everyone who offered guidance.

Welcome to the club :hug:

1000bhp · May 7, 2008

KeyGas - Good service

10:00 - Rang KeyGas (Wrexham)
13:00 - 10 litre bottle of Argoshield delivered to my door(Llandudno) for £25.00 + £5.00 delivery + VAT = £35.25.

I think that was pretty good service.

Driver was very apologetic about the £1.50/mth rental but I think its still very good value.

An NO I don't have shares in the company - just a happy welder.

I'll have to PM Weldequip now to get a big bottle gauge !

Gas price spreadsheet

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