13a rcbo's - a rare beast?

[hotponyshoes]

Looking to protect some socket outlets on a distribution board.

These boards have a couple of 13a socket outlets. I'd like to protect them individually so faults/problems with the equipment on one socket doesn't effect anything else in the distribution network.

I presumed a 13a rcbo would be easy to find but they are apparently rare?
I get that ring mains would normally be higher rated but what's the norm for a single protected spur?

Do I keep looking for a 13a rcbo?
Or, Fit a (more common) 16a rcbo and hope the plug fuse does the job?

 

[sg66]

16 usually

 

[Mikey D]

Not an expert , but you mean a radial circuit and there a16 amp breaker and 4 mm2 cable feeding them . I believe but I was at college 35 years ago +

 

[hotponyshoes]

Nope.

I'm making up some distribution boards for a generator.

13a socket outlets.

Used for mobile catering (so liable to get dropped/splashed/overloaded/etc)

What I would like to do is protect each outlet individually, primarily for personnel protection hence the rcbo, but not have the whole system shut down if one item presents with a fault condition.

So, not wired as a radial circuit, a board with a 32a inlet and a couple of 13a outlets. Each wired as a spur and individually protected.

I guess a 16a rcbo would still provide individually earth leakage protection to each outlet and the 13a fuse in connected plug would take care of any overload conditions?

 

[Kram]

MCB's and RCBO's trip very fast at the current limit while a 13A fuse will greatly depend on the current, you can draw 16A for a reasonable time before they will blow, which is fair as it would take a reasonable time for wiring to overheat at 16A...

So I would fit 16A RCBO's on each. I have a 16A rcbo inside my VFD enclosure and that has always been on a 13a plug.. (originally the house did not have any RCD protection and I wanted it due to motor)


However 13A do exist but seem to have a premium, I did a quick search..
OOS

https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/4553704-13a-single-pole-1-module-10ka-type-b-30ma

236963 PXK-C13/1N/003-A | Eaton RCBO, 13A Current Rating, 1P+N Poles, 30mA Trip Sensitivity, Type C, PXK Range | RS

uk.rs-online.com

Wylex RCBO AFDD Type B 13A 30mA | BED Electrical

Wylex RCBO AFDD Type B 13A 30mA

bedelectrical.co.uk

 

[Mark 5]

Looking to protect some socket outlets on a distribution board.

These boards have a couple of 13a socket outlets. I'd like to protect them individually so faults/problems with the equipment on one socket doesn't effect anything else in the distribution network.

I presumed a 13a rcbo would be easy to find but they are apparently rare?
I get that ring mains would normally be higher rated but what's the norm for a single protected spur?

Do I keep looking for a 13a rcbo?
Or, Fit a (more common) 16a rcbo and hope the plug fuse does the job?

They are not 13a socket outlets, your plug tops may have 13 amp fuses.

Protecting sockets/equipment attached individually via an RCBO is a good idea.

If each socket is wired as a final circuit, a 32a RCBO is best however there is nothing stopping you installing a 16 or 20a RCBO should you wish.

 

[hotponyshoes]

MCB's and RCBO's trip very fast at the current limit while a 13A fuse will greatly depend on the current, you can draw 16A for a reasonable time before they will trip, which is fair as it would take a reasonable time for wiring to overheat at 16A...

So I would fit 16A RCBO's on each. I have a 16A rcbo inside my VFD enclosure and that has always been on a 13a plug.. (originally the house did not have any RCD protection and I wanted it due to motor)


However 13A do exist but seem to have a premium, I did a quick search..
OOS

https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/4553704-13a-single-pole-1-module-10ka-type-b-30ma

236963 PXK-C13/1N/003-A | Eaton RCBO, 13A Current Rating, 1P+N Poles, 30mA Trip Sensitivity, Type C, PXK Range | RS

uk.rs-online.com

Wylex RCBO AFDD Type B 13A 30mA | BED Electrical

Wylex RCBO AFDD Type B 13A 30mA

bedelectrical.co.uk

This is what made me think they are rare!
I've been happy paying £15 for a branded 16a rcbo.
£100+ for a 13a made me wonder...

 

[Kram]

If you can use them I have several spare Wylex 16A and 32A RCBO's that I am never going to use, I got before we had the CU rewired.

 

[Mark 5]

This is what made me think they are rare!
I've been happy paying £15 for a branded 16a rcbo.
£100+ for a 13a made me wonder...

£100+ for a 13a RCBO ,cor'!

 

[hotponyshoes]

They are not 13a socket outlets, your plug tops may have 13 amp fuses.

Protecting sockets/equipment attached individually via an RCBO is a good idea.

If each socket is wired as a final circuit, a 32a RCBO is best however there is nothing stopping you installing a 16 or 20a RCBO should you wish.

So, am I correct in thinking,
Regardless of the amp rating, all 30ma rcbo's will offer suitable protection (wet/splashes primarily) to the guys using the kit?

These distro boards form a sort of ring main,
32a inlet and a 32a outlet (pass-through)
So I run 6mm cables between each distro board.
My existing distro boards are fitted with 16a rcbos and have 16a outlets but I'm (different thread running on this) building some boards with 13a normal socket outlets.

It's not unusual to get faults on mobile kit but I don't want to trip out the generator (and the dj!) when we do!

 

[Mark 5]

So, am I correct in thinking,
Regardless of the amp rating, all 30ma rcbo's will offer suitable protection (wet/splashes primarily) to the guys using the kit?

These distro boards form a sort of ring main,
32a inlet and a 32a outlet (pass-through)
So I run 6mm cables between each distro board.
My existing distro boards are fitted with 16a rcbos and have 16a outlets but I'm (different thread running on this) building some boards with 13a normal socket outlets.

It's not unusual to get faults on mobile kit but I don't want to trip out the generator (and the dj!) when we do!

No imo, for guys not just equipment, suitable IP protection should be considered and used alongside correct protective devices.

 

[hotponyshoes]

£100+ for a 13a RCBO ,cor'!

That's the first I found...
Kram's link above has found £30ish but I need 4 of them..

16a are readily available at under a tenner..

 

[Kram]

Are you aware that you cant stack similar rated earth leakage devices and hope that the nearest to load will trip first? A large earth leak could still trip everything.

May be best when it leaves generator to split into a catering, music and lighting feeds each with a suitable RCD, and then just MCB's for each outlet.

 

[hotponyshoes]

No imo, for guys not just equipment, suitable IP protection should be installed alongside correct protective devices.

The distro boards/sockets are ip rated fine.
What I'm plugging into the 13a sockets are things like transformers for the payment card readers etc and they could potentially get dropped into a dish of water..

 

[hotponyshoes]

Are you aware that you cant stack similar rated earth leakage devices and hope that the nearest to load will trip first? A large earth leak could still trip everything.

May be best when it leaves generator to split into a catering, music and lighting feeds each with a suitable RCD, and then just MCB's for each outlet.

No, but I'm learning!

Generally, the company that supply the marquee supply a big generator.

We turn up to do the catering and plug in to a 32a outlet.

Everyone yells at us if we do something to trip the power off..

 

[Kram]

Dont trip the power off!
I am not a sparky. I assume there must be some kind of wiring standard for temporary installations and generators for event use?

Problem is, if the gen has a 30mA RCD covering everything, that has equal chance to trip as an RCBO that is downstream.

You need a unit at the generator with an RCD/RCBO for each circuit or area. I dont know if bigger generators have that.. never used one.

I wouldnt want any unprotected cables outside at an event. I have seen the state of some event cables.

My mates guitar amp had bare wire showing and some very old, unsticky electrical tape dangling from it.

 

[MetalMonkey]

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm all for having a go yourself at home. But this sounds like a business, serving events involving the public with electrics that potentially are not compliant to BS7671

I'd strongly suggest you want to have any electrical distribution designed and installed professionally. If somebody gets hurt, irrespective of the cause, HSE will go in dry, balls deep and not even give you a rag to bite on. Not worth the risk to not to cover your posterior IMO.

 

[Kram]

I dont think a caterer, plugging im some extension leads and devices to a supply, could be held responsible for the sites electrical safety. That would fall to the event organiser and persons responsible for the generators.

Im not sure if portable kit is covered by BS7671? (I got bored of the sparky course about a month in..)

Anyway another option to look into, would be, isolation transformers. That will prevent your kit from tripping site wide RCD's and increase safety. If you have a written risk assesment to that effect and signed by a sparky, you should be fully covered from HSE bovine excrement.

 

[Farside]

My mates guitar amp had bare wire showing and some very old, unsticky electrical tape dangling from it.

He probably bought it from Alex Harvey's missus.

 

[Turbo]

A lot of those big gennys have the rcd built into the panel so unless you rewire the genny so that each outlet is served by its own rcbo there is no way around your problem.