20 questions on Birmabright Land Rover Ally

[kernowcam]

Hi Guys
A few months ago I was asking about welding birmabright ally on my land rover. About ready to start to sort the panels out this weekend.

What is the best corrosion / paint removal method. Grinder? stone discs? wire brush etc , without damaging the metal.
I have a small grit blaster which seems to get rid of the white stuff well.

I was thinking of cleaning out behind and patching with same type of ally and glueing (jb weld / silicone? ). Then a smear of filler over the outside? Poss a few pop rivets to hold it?

Basically afraid to weld it unless you guys can inspire me.

(have mig / and mapp gas plumbers torch and pop riverter)

If I can get to a gas set to experiment, is the 'filler' proper ally magnesium rod or can you use strips of original metal?

Any thoughts on stopping the corrosion between steel and ally. Rubber strip?

How about using stainless nuts and bolts? Better than steel?

Where there are stress fractures?? What next?

Thanks and happy christmas all.

 

[malcolm]

Couldn't find a lot of information about welding alu-mag alloys in my book or on the internet, so we can be creative :lol: . Here are my ideas for a start:

What is the best corrosion / paint removal method. Grinder? stone discs? wire brush etc , without damaging the metal.
I have a small grit blaster which seems to get rid of the white stuff well.

For paint removal I'd use paint stripper. Aluminium is so soft that mechanical methods would remove a lot of aluminium with the paint. I tried a wire brush on the end of an angle grinder and the aluminium wasn't happy. After the panel is stripped clean it up with a stainless wire brush by hand immediately prior to welding.

I was thinking of cleaning out behind and patching with same type of ally and glueing (jb weld / silicone? ). Then a smear of filler over the outside? Poss a few pop rivets to hold it?

Nooooooo! Do it properly! You'll feel so much better.

Standard aluminium MIG wire should weld the panels well enough - it's not as if they are safety critical. Takes a lot of practice, and you need to make sure the top and bottom surface have been cleaned with a stainless wire brush less than 20 minutes before welding, and the edges of the aluminium have been cleaned using a file. Otherwise the oxide layer causes problems and stops the bits of aluminium from sticking together.

It's well worth finding or buying some scrap aluminium for practicing. Takes a little time to get the hang of it.

A heat sink behind the panel (I used a lump of brass) is a godsend - you can mess about and use much the same technique as you'd use for steel and it'll work OK. That's all covered on http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/aluminium-welding.htm

Otherwise there is a miracle aluminium soldering rod you can use with a blowtorch. Sounds very easy and the manufacturers suggest it results in a strong joint. I've never tried it but would be very tempted to give it a go. If you do try it - could you take a load of photos and do a writeup for the site?

Any thoughts on stopping the corrosion between steel and ally. Rubber strip?

One of the Aston owners (who keep dumping cars around here) asked the same question on a Land Rover forum. Rubber strip is considered an excellent idea (bit of old inner tube). Failing that, or if space is too tight, a plastic faced duct tape is good, or even a good coating of instant gasket compound.

How about using stainless nuts and bolts? Better than steel?

Errrrm. Don't know. Trick has to be stopping the conductivity between the aluminium and the steel. When pop rivets are used aluminium seems to be the choice. Whatever you use, dip it into the instant gasket compound first (hermatite red or similar) to reduce the chance of electrical conduction (and resultant sacrificial corrosion etc).

Where there are stress fractures?? What next?

I'd guess do the same as with all stress fractures - drill a little hole at the end of the crack and then weld it up. Might be worth trying to work out why it has cracked and maybe add a little reinforcement to avoid the stress in the future.

Thanks and happy christmas all.

Good heavens - not that time already is it? Back into the cave for me then.

 

[kernowcam]

where do the stainless bruches come from
Do you think the mapp gas is hot enough to weld ally?
Attached photos of problem . may be able to cut out area and remake with minimum welding. (still fighting it) May get some argon and wire and have a go.

Any more ideas
(The rust is now fresh steel by the way)

Ian

 

[malcolm]

The Mapp torch would work for the aluminium soldering technique. (I found a link: http://www.easyweld.co.uk/
I'll try to get hold of some myself and see how it works.) The torch wouldn't work for actual welding - not enough control.

I bought a stainless wire brush from Halfords - it's a high quality draper one, quite small and came in a pack with a brass wire brush for about £3.

 

[malcolm]

I emailed easyweld to see if they'd send me a kit to use to write a review/ tutorial. They've very kindly agreed! They reckon other Land Rover owners have used it on burmabright alloy so it might well be an option.

I'll do some testing on sheet aluminium and see what it can do. Might be in a couple of weeks as I'm thinking of going somewhere nice and hot for a week to avoid Christmas.

 

[kernowcam]

Couldn't resist ordering a few rods from easyweld to try out.
Just had a chat with the guy who was very helpful with many pointers.
Will report back in due course. I can see things getting out of hand and trying to fill larger areas with the stuff rather than cutting out and replacing.
Will experiment.
Cheers
Ian

 

[kernowcam]

Been trying the easy weld rod and argon/ ally wire inthe mig.
The easyweld is erratic, prob to be fair due to my technique.
The mig wire is going ok,better than expected, pref with a backer.

The wire seems to dump loads of weld on the joint which when cleaned and filed back is ok ish. The joint seems good. I was thinking of trying to plug weld from underneath as this would give a good joint with my crap welding being hidden.

second option suggested is to joddle the joint and use pop rivets on the overlap!! The bonus extra is to recess the pop rivets with a tool which 'dimples' the outer hole so the rivet is flush. I guess a skim of fill and job done...

any thought
Ian

 

[malcolm]

I had a really quick play with Easyweld a couple of weeks ago but haven't been home since. Even for thin stuff the joint seems to need to be prepared into a V shape. You need to be able to touch the edges with the rod to tin it before the stuff will work. Wasn't brave enough to try vertical panels but I should be able to mess around some more when I get back next week.

I wouldn't feel good with the pop rivet approach. I'd imagine any filler over a pop rivited joint would crack with all the jiggling around those Land Rovers do. Aluminium mig welding works well with the backing plate, although I found if I got it too hot I'd get undercutting from the rear of the panel.

 

[kernowcam]

I was adventurous yesterday and cut out the bad bit from my land rover lightweight wings, (stone angle grinder)(before photo). Made a new panel on a plywood former (worked well) joddling the joint. (made from mole grips and a couple of slugs of metal)
Welded new in using plug welds and a backer. This worked really well making a strong joint and looks good on top.(Finished photo) The welds are ugly but hidden and i may grind them back(behind). God does that fast feed pour it in.
Ready to fill external gaps (close up photo) and i feel trying to weld will ruin good work so far.
I may 'easy weld' gap, but don't like the paint burning up so much but it will seal the edge .
A chap reccomended the flush pop rivet /filler method and the door he repaired looked fine.
Found a pop rivet 'dimpler' tool which i have ordered which should recess the rivets. Only £5.00 I will let you know.
http://www.lightaero.co.uk/las/30?part=ATS5102D-1-8%22

any better ideas to fill the gaps?
ian

 

[Lurcher]

Ian,
I take it you've posted on the LRO forum?
Lurcher

 

[kernowcam]

no whats the address? ian

 

[Lurcher]

Ian,
www.lro.com
It's a brilliant site for all things landy, helped me out hundreds of
times with my series 3(now sadly gone) and my current disco.
cheers
Lurcher

 

[kernowcam]

just finished the job by running easyweld into the joints and ground/ filed the edges. Bit like 'lead loading' i guess.
pretty good job, needs a smear of filler but fine.
will post pic soon.

i discovered aircraft rivets today. drill hole, dimple V it, push rivet through, bang from rear, flush job done, near perfect..... ideal for rotten land rover aluminium....

The saga continues

 

[Lurcher]

Anybody got a website I can view this Easyweld on?
Would like to know more.
cheers
Lurcher

 

[kernowcam]

http://www.easyweld.co.uk/

call the guy he is very helpful.

I have mixed feelings with the stuff.

Good for filling joints!!
Metal is harder than the ally i am welding which is ok.

Bit like soldering.

 

[Lurcher]

Not for me then, the site states...
"The rods will not work on Stainless Steel or any other type Steel (except galvanised)"
Sounds quite good for older Landies though.
cheers
Lurcher

 

[kernowcam]

apparantly stainless is ideal as a backer as it is 'smooth' and the rod does not stick to it.

 

[rtbcomp]

Don't use stainless steel in contact with aluminium as it will accelerate corrosion of the ally.

 

[aero]

Ask an airframe fitter, nudge nudge

You can use stainless against ally, so long as you use an insulating paste. It common practise on aircraft where steels have to attach to the airframe. There ia a special (very nasty) bright yellow paste, JT8 is one name it goes by.

Stress fractures usually occur from drilled holes, particularly poorly drilled ones where the fastner is not a good fit, bends, welds (which is why aircraft aren't welded), and corrosion.

 

[Lippyp]

Would it not be easier just to find better panels, I know air portables are less common than normal series vehicles but there must be some out there that get broken. when bulkheads/chassis etc get beyond repair.