A small project in mind

[The Gardener]

Greetings to one and all,

Its been about 10/15 years since i last did any MIG welding at college, god bless metal shop, i have spent the last few days debating a possible project for my home - railings.

Having had a look around, had a few quotes, seems it was cheaper, by quite a way to source my own infill bars, stock bar, and caps than to buy. So in the true keeping of DIY, and biting of more than you can chew, I have ordered all my components and now i am looking to buy a MIG welder

I will be welding the following:

-16mm infill bars to a 8mm thick runner bar (40mm wide)
- 8mm thick runner bar to hammered hollow section 40mm square posts
-post caps to 40mm posts.

So having spend ages looking around for advice, folk at mig-welding.co.uk seems to be the place to be

Hello to all.

 

[irondarren]

Sizewise you are going to need a mig welder in the order of 180 amps, minimum. Preferably something a little larger. The box sections is only going to be 2.5mm thick, which is fine even a 100amp mig unit could cope with that. But welding the 16mm square to the 40mm x 8mm flat will require more power. Have just checked and I am currently welding 16mm sq to 40mm x10mm and I am using about 220 amps.

Which means you will be looking at something similar to this http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/220te-turbo-mig-welder

or a portamig 211, which weldequip on this forum sells both are similar in price i believe, but the portamig unit is uk made and has a better duty cycle, either unit is going to set you back the wrong side of £600 time you have gas etc. I dont know if you budgeted for that amount in the price of the railings

 

[The Gardener]

I was quoted $1284 for the railings with 16mm infill bar, + vat and delivery

Materials bought for $198.00 so was wondering if a cheaper started mid price range mig welder would do the trick, or if i would need to hire one - HSS, with only a standard domestic supply, is it possible to run something upto 180amp + off that supply ?

The material is all mild steel - having had a read through it seems that MIG is the way to go, but would oxyacetylene brazing do the trick ?

I will be assembing the railings as follows:

2No 1.3m sections (railings ends)
2No 1.8 sections- (front)

Many thanks for your comments - and praise for your designs and works !!

 

[irondarren]

You could happy do it with an MMA/arc unit with out to much trouble thats a lot cheaper to buy

You were quoted £1284+vat for 4 panels? 2 x 1.3mtrs and 2 x 1.8mtrs, how tall are they

 

[The Gardener]

For the supply of:
Description: Flat top railings
Design: Basic

Finish: Galvanised
Max width of opening: 19 feet 0 inches
Height: 4 feet 0 inches


Supplied with:
Railheads: Steel Ball with galvanised finish.
Posts: 4 posts of 4 feet 0 inches with additional 18 inches (45 cm) for concreting into ground.
You have requested 2 end posts. In addition to this, we have calculated, that for this length you will need an additional 2 intermediate posts and we have included these in this quotation.

Top of posts: post ball (finished with galvanised)

Specifications:
Frame: 40 x 15mm steel bar
Verticals: 12mm solid square

Posts: 60 x 60 x 3mm hollow section


Vertical bar spacing is approximately 4 inches (10 cm)
Railings supplied in 4 panels of up to 2 metres.

PRICE for design & manufacture to order including VAT 1 off £1,284.00

Estimate for delivery cost £91.00


(and that was 3 not 2 pannels for the front, oops)

 

[Wozzaaah]

I'm guessing £600 is probably more than you were thinking for your first mig but like Darren says, you need plenty of amps when you're talking 8-10mm steel. AFAIK the duty cycle @60% is virtually identical on both machines, 123A on the clarke vs 120 on the Portamig. I'm not sure what the other duty figures are as I can only find the 60% figure for both. I don't think you'd go far wrong with either machine BUT the portamig goes lower, 20A min vs 30A on the clarke. This may be something to consider if there's a chance you'll be welding car bodywork. If there's a possibility you'll be doing more railings in the future then I'd agree with Darren and say go larger still. If you can get one other set to do, the welder will have earned it's money. One other thing you'll need to consider is the supply requirements although the fuse the manufacturers specify is always way bigger than is actually needed.

 

[The Gardener]

Once the railings up up and the front is finished, it is unlikely i would be doing anything like car bodywork (althought i shall never say never) I am on the otherhand likely to have a play to see what else i can do, as there is only so much gardening and house decorating stuff to be done - her indoors, who has a keen eye for all things 'arty' has expressed an interest - good job i have medial assistance on hand, where her ladyship being a nurse !

Once again, thanks for your input, plenty to think about me thinks !

 

[irondarren]

by my estimation its about £550-£650 worth plus galvanising guess at cost of galv about £200 inc vat so about £850's worth. if painted and not galved i would have said about £650-£750 worth. someone was trying to over charge you by about £400. I dont blame you for wanting to make them yourself.
You can run a 180 amp machine off a 13amp plug but it will blow the fuse often. It would be preferable to run it from a 16amp socket. I have in the past used fuse wire in a plug as opposed to a standard fuse, this allows for more amperage, but it will kill the 13amp plug after a few months use. For what its worth it may be worth if you are running it from the garage, wiring up a 16amp socket. you can if you have plug sockets already in the garage run a short spur off from one of the plug sockets and connect a 16amp socket. The plug and socket are likely to cost you about £15 from an electrical wholesaler

 

[The Gardener]

already starting to see that i have taken on a lot more than i expected - but as always thats half the fun !!

i was presented with two options for my railings

-i could either buy prefab, which would end in a lot of waste and in my opinion was inferio to the 16mm infill bar i have opted for / buy custom made railings which were a lot more than i was interested in paying

-i could make them myself (bold statement in hindsight)

Looking around, HSS will do a hire for about 100/week for a basic upto 185/200amp mig arc about the same for stick

Buying wise, i am finding MMA/arc units for around the 250 mark, is there a particular model that you guys would recommend ?

Many thanks for your comments, i have a feeling this project is going to have a steep learning curve.

 

[irondarren]

Good thing about having a welder is you can do plenty of fun things in the garden so to speak. Arc/MMA is certainly cheaper to buy but requires great practice to be good at it, Mig is easy to learn but more expensive to buy. Plus with arc you only require to be able to use 3.2mm rods, which is a 130amp upwards machine. The old taditional transformer type arc units are very cheap to buy, but inverters are much nicer and easier to use.
http://www.diywelding.co.uk/products.asp?d=3&c=14
Diy welding has transformer units from about £100, but inverters are about £250. I cant recommend any of the units there as may one is about £750, more expensive than the Mig you would have bought. Diywelding also posts to this forum. What i would say is stay away from cheap chinese made units there will be no spares back up for them should anything go wrong, and buy from a reputable dealer

 

[shenion]

Arc/stick would be fine and the lowest cost to get into. You can get a used one off ebay relatively cheap. These old beasts just don't really wear out. Look for one that is 220-amp or better. AC only is fine, but DC will give a bit better results.

With stick, welding it will take considerable practice to get consistent good welds. If you can reposition the work so all welds are flat/horizontal, it will be relatively easy.

MIG would be a faster learning curve. You can get a Clarke 180 setup for about £300. PM weldequip for a price, he can get you one in a day or so from what I hear. I have a Clarke 130EN and it has worked great; did wish I went with the 180 though.

With either MIG or arc, expect to spend several hours practicing on scrap. Look at the tutorials in this forum. Some good info here.

Sounds like a fun project.

 

[rtbcomp]

Get a secondhand arc set, see it working before you part with your cash! Sell it when the job is done and you may get your money back or even make a profit. If you decide to keep it then it will always come in handy, you can plug it in, set the amps, connect the earth and do a weld - no messing about with wire speeds and selector switches.

I bought a low-end Clarke MIG to complement my stick welder, that carries on where the MIG finishes. I was given a SIP which would cover the entire range so I sold the Clarke - big mistake!

 

[The Gardener]

Havng had a look round on google, most of the secondhand sellers are on ebay - with a whole load of kit manufactured/ coming in from china !

many thanks for all for your comments it gives me a bit of a better idea as to what i need to be looking at:

Butters 240v DC Weldy Inverters
http://www.rotecweldingequipment.co.uk/acatalog/240_volt_dc_inverter_arc_welder.html

Sealey Arc Welder 180Amp
http://www.justoffbase.co.uk/Arc-Welder-180Amp-with-Accessory-Kit-Sealey-180XTD?sc=9&category=745

How does this look ?

Clarke 235TE Turbo 210amp Turbo Arc Welder (235TE Replaces 230TE)

This Clarke 235TE is a professional turbo fan cooled arc welding machine.
40-210 amps. Suitable for 1.6-4.0mm (16g-8g) electrodes.
Thermal overload protected with auto reset. Integral trolley.
We supply the Clarke 235TE with instructions, electrode holder and cable, earth clamp and cable, hand shield and chipping hammer/wire brush.

Oh and just in case it is of any use to any of you guys that have the kit / inclination / make your own railings etc- I bought all my mild steel railing componets from forest metal components - with next working day delivery always a good thing.

 

[irondarren]

The sealey one is a transformer type unit, not as good as an inverter but cheaper. The inverter unit will have a higher duty cycle, meaning it will weld for longer without over heating and having to stop. Rotec seem competitive on price for there units.

Try this link and look at the inverter fusion units, which is what i have. But mine is the 200phf unit which is also a TIG machine as well. If you like the fusion units PM weldequip on the forum and i believe he can often get you a better deal that MTA.
http://www.migtigarc.co.uk/Arc_Welder/arc_welder.html

 

[Weldingartisan]

Did you not see the $ sign irondarren? I assume The Gardener is across the pond which makes the price quite good

 

[irondarren]

I thought that but the links from other sites he showed was for uk sites, one of the things malcolm is changing, trying to get everyone to state there country of residence. After all we can give the best advice in the world but it might only be relevant to the UK, to be honest if i know they are from the USA i let shenion, answer if its what make of welder should i buy

 

[The Gardener]

gah, my apologies - I am in the UK, hampshire in the UK.