Advice on this joint please. (pics)

[Jorge]

Hi all.

Following on from first post where I am very grateful for the helpful advice and info., it was pointed out that my plan to weld cast might cause a problem. Would anyone offer some further advice please.

I've attached two pictures, they are of the headstock area of a motorcycle frame.

The first pic shows where I have split and then welded a tube (I used galvanised tube after grinding off the coating as it was the only correct size material I could obtain). The second pic is a close-up of where I need to weld around the end.



This isn't structural as the original frame tube is intact underneath my addition. The object is just to cover up some bad welding.

I'm worried that with my inexperience I might damage the casting, although the original (underneath my work) is steel tube welded to the cast at the factory. So I will actually be joining cast + steel + original weld joint + de-coated galv.

My thought are some kind of filler rod (if there is such a thing, recommendations would be appreciated), alternatively find someone who could braze the joint nicely.

Any thought greatly appreciated.
Jorge

PS: forgive the signs of my bad welding along the galv tube... my first ever attempt!

 

[pedrobedro]

If it's cast steel you should be able to weld it with no problem.

 

[shirazman]

Go to your local welding supplier and tell them exactly what you are welding. They should have the relevant rods. You must preheat the job before welding it. When you find out exactly what it is. i.e. cast iron, cast steel and you have the right rods there will be a number on the rods, google that and it will tell you exactly how to prepare the job.
I have used nickel rods for these jobs before. These are good for dissimilar metal jobs

 

[Jorge]

Hi and thank you pedro and shirazman,

Once again my total ignorance comes through (I apologise), but I will be honest and admit that I had never heard of cast steel only cast iron, so now I don't really know what I'm looking at . It is just that I read in the forum tutorials to be careful of not cracking cast (iron/steel?) with too much heat.

I really am sorry to come across as a dummy, but can anyone tell me how to tell if it is iron or steel?

I'm pretty much limited to general stores for advice (no existant) and supplies, I haven't been able to find any local specialist welding shops

Would I need to pre-heat this with a oxy tourch or something?. Perhaps this is whole excercise going to be beyond me.

Thanks again,
Jorge

 

[Shox Dr]

Would I need to pre-heat this with a oxy tourch or something?. Perhaps this is whole excercise going to be beyond me.

Thanks again,
Jorge

In a word YES. You are

a; trying to cover up, a possible weld failure.
b; going about it in the wrong manor
c; have no experience
d; possibly going kill yourself if it fails at speed


One best left to a professional

Looks like a Harley FL frame??

 

[Jorge]

In a word YES. You are

a; trying to cover up, a possible weld failure.
b; going about it in the wrong manor
c; have no experience
d; possibly going kill yourself if it fails at speed


One best left to a professional

Looks like a Harley FL frame??

Hello Shox Dr and thanks for the reply,

I agree with your comment 100% .

The problem is... I did leave it to a professional (two of them) and photo 1 (front down tubes) and photo 2 (rear downtube) below shows what I got back in return. This was after asking the 'professionals' to give me good looking welds for later powder coating. You could say that I should have asked to see some of they're welding beforehand... well I did and it looked absolutely fine and it was also a company that does nothing but welding with certificates all over the wall.

Your right and I'm admitting it, I'm totally inexperienced and don't really want to encrouch into a specialist profession (I'm only a mechanic by trade), but my experience with the professionals has left me with two options, try to remedy this myself or throw the frame/bike away. If I can't remedy it then the second option will be what I do, but I'm only trying to save it.

As mentioned, I'm not really concerned about structural strength, that should be ok as it hasn't been altered apart from one area where I have milled down a 1.5” dia solid steel bar to go internally into the backbone.

As well as the top pics, picture 3 & 4 below shows the type thing I attempting to do as a cover up.eg thin wall box section that I have constructed. I wish I didn't need to.

As I say, I totally agree with you, you might be able to help if you could tell me where I'm going about it in the wrong way, I'm more than open to any suggestions.

Thank you again, I do appreciate it.

Only joking, but I'm not going to kill myself at 'speed'... it's a god darned harley (fxs)

Jorge.

 

[Jorge]

Would anyone tell me if there is a faq or info (on/off site) where I can learn about the different types of welding rods?... types, uses, markings, good/bad, manufacturers etc.

Thanks

 

[snowcat]

Would anyone tell me if there is a faq or info (on/off site) where I can learn about the different types of welding rods?... types, uses, markings, good/bad, manufacturers etc.

Thanks

Start here for the advice on materials and rods, there is also a electrode referance chart with the tutorial section.

 

[Drains]

Go to your local welding supplier and tell them exactly what you are welding. They should have the relevant rods. You must preheat the job before welding it. When you find out exactly what it is. i.e. cast iron, cast steel and you have the right rods there will be a number on the rods, google that and it will tell you exactly how to prepare the job.
I have used nickel rods for these jobs before. These are good for dissimilar metal jobs

Preheat? You'll find plenty of people who disagree with that. It depends on the rods amongst other things. The fact that it is almost certainly cast steel means preheat is not necessary. If it were cast iron, which it's not, there are procedures (on this forum) for cold welding that save plenty of effort over preheating. NiFe rods can be used easily without preheat - small welds, peening and cooling.

Jorge - you do know not to weld galv tube don't you? Get that zinc off. TBH it really looks like you're trying to run before you can walk. Without more confidence in your knowledge, experience and abilities, you might need to follow Shox Dr's advice and find a pro who actually knows what they're doing. Even a "pro" welder might be bigging themselves up a little. There's more to the game than meets the eye!

 

[Jorge]

Hello snowcat and Drains, thank you very much for replying.

Start here for the advice on materials and rods, there is also a electrode referance chart with the tutorial section.

snowcat, thank you, the link was exactly what I was looking for. The only thing I totally don't understand in the link is the column that says “Touch arc”, does this mean you could drag the rod for a very tight arc or is it something else?

Preheat? You'll find plenty of people who disagree with that. It depends on the rods amongst other things. The fact that it is almost certainly cast steel means preheat is not necessary. If it were cast iron, which it's not, there are procedures (on this forum) for cold welding that save plenty of effort over preheating. NiFe rods can be used easily without preheat - small welds, peening and cooling.

Jorge - you do know not to weld galv tube don't you? Get that zinc off....

@Drains, thanks also. I had read in the tutorials about pre-heat and iron/steel. I noticed one of the statements suggested that an oven at 500c was needed for iron alternatively the 'cool' method? For steel. Its a relief you say it is steel. I checked out the electrode references that snowcat suggested and saw Ni mentioned, but not NiFe that you recommend, does that indicate something like nickel-ferrite?. Would you mind advising me further on which rods to use for this job (does the 2.5mm dia rod still apply?).

Can I also clear up in my own mind... do you mean don't weld galv, period, or don't weld galv unless the coating is removed first?. I have ground the coating away all along where I am welding, but there was still a small amount of white fumes, at which stage I got a large fan aimed at the work to blow the fumes away... PTvor had given me the heads up about fume fever in a previous thread and after reading up on it I didn't fancy catching any of that!

Can I add to everyone... I truly appreciate the help, I also truly appreciate the apprehension (perhaps concern) that I am attempting to do this and possibly the reticence to even reply to my requests for advice. Like I have tried to explain, my first and preferred option is for a 'pro' to do this, I didn't want to buy a welder, helmet and gear, nor did I want to try to learn or undertake this. At the risk of repeating myself (and I am sorry that I am not good with words and I go on too much), I paid two professional welders to do this job and the results are shown in the pics above, the first b*llsed it up, the second made it even worst!!!. I really don't want to do this for the fun of it, but I'm out of options.

Again, I'm repeating myself, but nothing I am doing is structure or strength critical. The tube (galv) that is shown around the backbone in the top pics in the first post is not even close fitting around the original backbone (which is intact underneath), it just flops around until I weld it at the ends. Body filler or putty would be good enough if it would take a powder coating finnish. The box I want to weld to the back of the frame is merely 2mm thin and both things are solely an attempt to cover up what the 'pro's' have left me with and I stand no chance of undoing without totally wrecking the frame.

So all I can say is... thank you very much to everyone who does offer they're advice, it is truly appreciated.
Jorge

 

[Dev]

When you say you went to a professional welder do you mean someone who can do car repairs or a ferretero (ironmonger)?

I can well believe there are plenty of people who work on decorative ironwork judging by the vast amount of it in Murcia but that's not the same as welding automotive parts at all.

 

[Jorge]

When you say you went to a professional welder do you mean someone who can do car repairs or a ferretero (ironmonger)?

I can well believe there are plenty of people who work on decorative ironwork judging by the vast amount of it in Murcia but that's not the same as welding automotive parts at all.

Hello Dev,

No it certainly wasn't a ferreteria, the first was a auto repair workshop and the second (where I thought I'd be extra safe) was a marine workshop that does all sorts including stainless. I admit to not reading them fully, but the marine shop had certificates on the wall for welding and I did ask to see an example weld beforehand. I guess you could say I was done over... not unusual as I'm sure you know if your familiar with Spain and some of the workmanship

What do you think of those pics of what I got back, absolutely appalling if you ask me... and I'm obviously no welder.

Jorge

 

[Drains]

Jorge, supposing that material is cast steel, using standard lo-hydrogen rods will be fine - that's 7018/7016 rods. Make sure you remove all zinc coating from that galvanised tube and make sure your welder, if it's AC, has an OCV high enough for the rods, or a DC set which will work anyway.

If you're certain these bits are not structural (is this a motorbike frame... are you sure it's not an important structural weld?????), then you can use a 6013 rod, with any welder.

Cast steel does not require a pre-heat - certainly with the material thicknesses you are using here. But I wouldn't be happy about a non-welder working on a motorbike frame, myself. Even in Spain.

 

[Dev]

It's not just Spain, you get bad tradesmen everywhere. It's hard to tell sometimes when you don't have a personal recommendation to go by. The last time I got the car "serviced" the service light came back on after a week. I went back to the mechanic who said he could fix that by disconnecting the battery for a few minutes! Made me suspicious about whether he serviced it properly at all.

But If you need a bit of building work done I know a man named Brinas who isn't allowed to take any money till his old dad comes and inspects the work

 

[Jorge]

Hi Drains,

Thank you very much, that is everything I wanted to know.

I'm waiting for my auto darkening helmet to arrive before I attempt any more welding and the first thing I've done is to buy some steel so that I can practise some more by making a simple welding trolley.

After seeing some white fumes on my last attempt, I will be doing everything outside with a face mask and with a strong fan blowing (don't have an extractor).

I assure you it isn't structural, if it were I wouldn't even think about trying it and even so if I'm unhappy with any of the outcome... I will give up totally on the frame/bike. All (and I admit that is really a big word) I need to do is to try to make good looking welds because thats the whole point of covering up what others have done.

Again, thank you so very much for not giving up on replying to my posts and all of your help, it is really appreciated.

Jorge.

 

[Jorge]

It's not just Spain, you get bad tradesmen everywhere.

Hi Dev,

I wouldn't disagree with that, but in my experience, your more likely to get a bad job Spain, but having said that, I haven't been back in the UK for 15 years, so I don't know if its changed.

A few years ago I totally rebuilt this same bike I'm working on now. I couldn't find any taller with a sand blaster, so I stripped the frame (original powder coat) back to bare metal by hand, it took me days. To cut a story short, I had to totally strip it a further three times because every time it came back from (Spanish) powder coating there was things wrong with it. When I finally assembled it, I got about 200miles on the bike and the powder coating developed surface spider web cracks. I was so disheartened and peeved of that I never used the bike again... now I am doing another complete rebuild on it, hence my arrival in these forums.

Thanks again Dev.
Jorge.

 

[Jorge]

Just an update:-

I've been practising today and regarding my previous comments, I'm putting this job on hold or possibly abandoning it, because I don't think I am capable . True to my word, I'm not gonna jump into something and create problems¿

Oh well, back to practising in case I can improve.