Any Harley Sportster 883 Doctors out there?

[Dilkris]

I have a 883 Sportster, 2009 model.

Without going into details of how and why, the bike ending up sitting, (stationary with alarm in transport mode), in 500mm of water for 6 hours – to put this in perspective, this is sufficient to completely cover the starter motor. (and lots of other things)
I have been working through the bike now for some 2 weeks and believe I have covered EVERYTHING with the exception of one thing which is to establish whether any water got into the sump.
(As you will be aware, these engines have what I consider to be one very poor design flaw, which is whilst a dry sump engine, there is no facility to actually drain the sump.)

I removed the oil pump, (amongst many other things obviously) in the hope of being able to insert a small vacuum pipe along the scavenge circuit gallery in the crankcase half, but this proved unsuccessful.
Obviously the water did manage to access the gearbox/primary drive cases through the breather pipe which is just forward and below of the stater motor, (this is now all drained and cleaned out following removal of the primary drive casing cover) – but….
COULD WATER GET FROM HERE INTO THE ENGINE?
I note that there is a crankshaft oil seal on the primary drive side of the engine, (which I obviously see as a good thing), where as there is none on the timing cover side, (Note: There was no evidence of water in here upon removing the timing cover.)
I’m obviously at the “start it and see” stage but beforehand, I thought I’d reach out for any comments on this.
Yes, I know, there are many "focused" Harley Sportster platforms out there but as this has always been my "go to" forum, I thought I'd post here first.

 

[Kram]

Are there any holes you could poke one of the small bore camera endescopes?

Alternative is you could fill it with oil and note when it drained out if its got a layer of water seperation or emulsified.

Tip it over or upside down? I believe they are quite good at tipping over

 

[Dilkris]

Are there any holes you could poke one of the small bore camera endescopes?

Alternative is you could fill it with oil and note when it drained out if its got a layer of water seperation or emulsified.

Tip it over or upside down? I believe they are quite good at tipping over

No - no such holes Kram.
Filling it with oil involves filling the oil tank, where upon it just sits there until the oil pump starts its stuff, which it does when you turn the engine over.
Tip it upside down..??? - I appreciate your humor Kram - it weighs 260kg and where would the water come out from....?
this brings us back to "there is a hole in my bucket dear Liza".... if it runs out - how did it get in...????

 

[daleyd]

Can you take the plug caps off and spin it on the starter a few times, see if there’s any emulsification of the oil back in the tank?

 

[addjunkie]

Can you take the plug caps off and spin it on the starter a few times, see if there’s any emulsification of the oil back in the tank?

That would be my thinking, with the plugs out. If there is any signs of water, drain and flush the oil system repeatedly. Then fire it up

 

[Dilkris]

Can you take the plug caps off and spin it on the starter a few times, see if there’s any emulsification of the oil back in the tank?

Yes - this is my thinking - (as I cannot think of anything else to do) - but first thought I'd check in here first.

 

[Morrisman]

If there was a way for water to get into the crankcase, then oil would come out that way when it was running.

If it were me I’d run the motor, gently, for a short while, then drop the oil from the oil tank and pour it into a transparent container and leave it to settle, to see if any little wiggly jelly fish are lurking at the bottom. That’ll be the water.

 

[Dilkris]

If there was a way for water to get into the crankcase, then oil would come out that way when it was running.

If it were me I’d run the motor, gently, for a short while, then drop the oil from the oil tank and pour it into a transparent container and leave it to settle, to see if any little wiggly jelly fish are lurking at the bottom. That’ll be the water.

Your initial comment is difficult to disagree with.
I agree entirely your second paragraph - which is the route I intend to take.
Wish me luck.

 

[RichardM]

Breather will allow air pulses from the crankcase to vent, so if water has got in to the primary through the breather then is may get into the crankcase as well. Is there a timing plug on the crankcase, maybe get that to a low point and see if anything comes out.
If you have a workshop manual have a look to see if any of the casing screws need rtv due to going onto the crankcase.

 

[Dilkris]

Breather will allow air pulses from the crankcase to vent, so if water has got in to the primary through the breather then is may get into the crankcase as well. Is there a timing plug on the crankcase, maybe get that to a low point and see if anything comes out.
If you have a workshop manual have a look to see if any of the casing screws need rtv due to going onto the crankcase.

Crankcase "appears" to vent via the push rod tubes up and through the rocker box covers through what appears to be a one way valve arrangement per head - it is all a little "off the wall" to me tbh. I can see no evidence of any water/moisture/condensation within the engine anywhere.
Have the workshop manual - can find no info to help me with this - this really is my last resort so to speak.

 

[RichardM]

From the pics of crankcases I have just looked at I would agree. Some appear to have a bung at the front, (some don't) which may be for timing and allow you to see inside the casing.
I assume you have a scavenge return pick-up some where in the crankcase, isolate the output and start the engine, if there is water in it it will soon be appearing in the output.
Your comment on removing the oil pump and trying to suck through the scavenge pick up pipe. How was that unsuccessful? Nothing came out, poor seal?

 

[Kram]

Drill a hole and tap for a drain plug, problem sorted for next time.

 

[dave h 2]

Assuming the bike was stone cold when it went swimming it should be OK. I would be trying to stop the oil going back into the tank for the test.

 

[Dilkris]

Drill a hole and tap for a drain plug, problem sorted for next time.

Oh 100% Kram - if I ever do a full engine out and rebuild on this bike - that modification will be on the top of the list. Why Harley never included this is beyond me - although a personal opinion, their technical attention to detail on this engine is generally 100% and beyond fault - it makes no sense.

 

[Dilkris]

Assuming the bike was stone cold when it went swimming it should be OK. I would be trying to stop the oil going back into the tank for the test.

It was stone cold - agreed on the oil return.

 

[graffian]

I know nothing about sporties[no sister;-)].

I would pull the timing plug, rotate the motor and see if there is any sign of water on the flywheel?
Then look for signs of water in the scavenge oil, either in a not the the oil tank or stick a length of clear hose in the return line.

No drain? It's not like they never wet sumped.

 

[Dilkris]

From the pics of crankcases I have just looked at I would agree. Some appear to have a bung at the front, (some don't) which may be for timing and allow you to see inside the casing.
I assume you have a scavenge return pick-up some where in the crankcase, isolate the output and start the engine, if there is water in it it will soon be appearing in the output.
Your comment on removing the oil pump and trying to suck through the scavenge pick up pipe. How was that unsuccessful? Nothing came out, poor seal?

No such bung on the sportster engine - the 883 and 1200 sportster engine is a "unit motor" as opposed to the larger Harleys, which are pre unit.
The oil pump is basically 2 pumps on a common shaft - one obviously is the main oil pump to the engine and the second the scavenge pump. I was unable to suck through the scavenge pick up pipe because it is not a simple pipe - but a convoluted gallery with bends, cast within the crankcase. It was simply impossible.
Accessing the oil return to the oil tank makes sense.

 

[Dilkris]

I know nothing about sporties[no sister;-)].

I would pull the timing plug, rotate the motor and see if there is any sign of water on the flywheel?
Then look for signs of water in the scavenge oil, either in a not the the oil tank or stick a length of clear hose in the return line.

No drain? It's not like they never wet sumped.

Unlike the Triumph T120 and T160 - the Sportster does not wet sump - they have a well engineered none return valve system.
There is no way to "see" the flywheel on a sportster engine (unless you split the crankcases or pull the barrels.... )
Agreed - making mods so as to be able to see any water in the scavenge return appears to be the way to go.

 

[RichardM]

No such bung on the sportster engine - the 883 and 1200 sportster engine is a "unit motor" as opposed to the larger Harleys, which are pre unit.
The oil pump is basically 2 pumps on a common shaft - one obviously is the main oil pump to the engine and the second the scavenge pump. I was unable to suck through the scavenge pick up pipe because it is not a simple pipe - but a convoluted gallery with bends, cast within the crankcase. It was simply impossible.
Accessing the oil return to the oil tank makes sense.

Is this your style of crankcase? Have a look halfway up the front of the crankcase there seems to be an opening, although I have also seen that style without that feature.

Harley-Davidson 06 Sportster XL883 Engine Cases Crankcase 24558-06/24534-06 | eBay

Used 2006 Harley-Davidson Sportster XL883. Crank Case Engine Cases. For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, That whoever Believes in Him Shall not perish, but have eternal life.

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[Kram]

Oh 100% Kram - if I ever do a full engine out and rebuild on this bike - that modification will be on the top of the list. Why Harley never included this is beyond me - although a personal opinion, their technical attention to detail on this engine is generally 100% and beyond fault - it makes no sense.

Just drill a hole near the bottom, you wont hit anything important