Anyone identify this push/pull gun?

[Hood]

Bought a Push/Pull gun from eBay hoping it would do for my EWM but afraid the motors voltage is 24VDC and my EWM needs 42V (AC I think)

I am trying to identify the spool gun to see if it is possible to get a properly rated motor but there are no markings on the gun at all and I was hoping someone would recognise it.

Some pics.

With the cover off showing the roller mechanism. Not sure exactly how it works as the whole assembly rotates with the motor so I am assuming the rollers must be at an angle and kind of pull the wire through kind of like a nut running up a thread.

pic of the mechanism rotated 90 degrees.

Pic of the gun stripped.

Lastly a pic of the motor label.

 

[Turbo]

Might be easier to fit a 42-24v converter, that motor looks very specialised.

 

[Hood]

Might be easier to fit a 42-24v converter, that motor looks very specialised.

I have a feeling that wouldn't work but it might but would also have to rectify the AC.
Have stripped the torch down further and it is a brushed DC motor and the brushes are about shot although it does still work. Found a makers name on the motor and it is Pittman USA but can't find any info on their site.
Looks like it is not going to work for me which is a shame, don't even think I am going to be able to adapt the lead to fit my other push pull to make it 8m instead of the 5m it is

I also have an R-Tech MTS255S Mig but I am not sure what voltage it requires, might be lucky but probably not

 

[Hood]

Looking at the EWM manual it would seem it is 42VDC, so maybe a DC-DC converter would do after all.

 

[Hood]

I emailed Pittman to enquire about the motor and their reply was.

"Part number 7214C228-R1 is made exclusively for our customer, Burisch. I am not able to quote the motor."

So I thought I would do a search for Burisch and see if I could find any info about the torch but all I come up with is air tools/compressors etc.
Anyone know if Burisch used to make Mig guns?

 

[jrwhalley]

They make some pieces for Fronius, and here's a picture of what looks like the same gun in Fronius red. Out of an Australian trade magazine from 2011. Pttman used to make motors for model trains and slot cars from the 1950s through the 70s, anyway. Some of the slot car racers are pretty good at repairing and modding those little DC motors if Fronius is no help. Hope this helps you out.

 

[Hood]

Thanks, that is definitely the same, even the description describes the feed rollers perfectly.
I made a new brush up for it yesterday as one was almost gone. I found a brush from an old DC servo and filed it down from 12mm square to 3.1mm x 2.3mm, carbon is easy to file but makes a heck of a mess

 

[Hood]

Thanks to the heads up from you I have now found the manual for it
http://www.axson.se/res/ovrigt_pdf/4204100997.pdf

 

[Hood]

Well all I can say is that it is a very impressive feed mechanism, maybe too good?
This video shows it hauling 1mm 5356 wire at 10v.
BTW please excuse the heavy breathing, I have a cold

Now I need to get some info from some kind and friendly EWM experts as to what my options are and whether it will work or not, anyone know some?

looking at you @Jim Davey and @6 milli billi

 

[Hood]

Looks like my options are zero as far as I can make out anyway. Looked into a voltage divider circuit and that is not going to work and I have looked in the Phoenix manual and can't find anything about being able to change the voltage to utilise the 24vDC motor.

 

[Jim Davey]

Can’t you change the motor?

 

[Hood]

Can’t you change the motor?

Don't think so as it seems to be a specially made motor by Pittman solely for Burisch, whom I presume supply the torches to Fronius and possibly Cemont.

 

[wookie]

Forgive me for asking such basic questions (it's been a very long time since I used a push/pull mig gun, that was ally mig)...

1. the dial on the gun is to control just the gun motor speed ?
2. does the motor in the mig push the wire to the gun and then the motor in the gun pulls ? if so you need to match the 2 motor speeds ?
3. what electrics are in the gun ? does the potentiometer affect the gun motor speed or do all connections go back to the mig unit ?

Making or buying a motor controller that can run a 24vdc motor is easy enough.

 

[Hood]

The pot signals the welder and the welder controls both the gun motor and the feed motor in the welder itself.
Yes that is the way it works and yes it should need both motor speeds, or at least feeds matched. I am not sure how exactly the EWM does it but there is mention of current sensing in the manual so I presume the computer must monitor both its own motor and the guns motor and adjust accordingly.
No electrics in the gun at all except motor, pot and trigger. All connections go back to the Mig.

Motor controller won't work as it needs to be the welder that controls the speed especially when in pulse or double pulse modes.

What I would need is a method of dividing the voltage that the welder sends to the guns motor so that, for example, the welder puts out 42v then the gun motor gets 24v, the welder puts out 21v the motor gets 12v etc. I don't think that is possible or at least from the searching I have done of the last few days it seems like it is not.

Two options seem to be get a motor rated at 42v or have the welder output 24v. Neither of these seem to be possible as far as I can see as the motor is a specially made motor for the gun and the welder only seems to be able to work with 42v motors.

 

[wookie]

I am not sure how exactly the EWM does it but there is mention of current sensing in the manual so I presume the computer must monitor both its own motor and the guns motor and adjust accordingly.
<SNIP>
What I would need is a method of dividing the voltage that the welder sends to the guns motor so that, for example, the welder puts out 42v then the gun motor gets 24v, the welder puts out 21v the motor gets 12v etc. I don't think that is possible or at least from the searching I have done of the last few days it seems like it is not.

Ah, it's not going to be easy then, reducing the voltage that the gun motor sees is fairly easy but doing it so the EWM can monitor the current isn't straight forward, assuming that the pot in the gun is compatible with your welder I think the best way forward might be to get the gun motor rewound for the higher voltage.

 

[Hood]

The pot in the gun is knackered but that is not a problem as it is an off the shelf item from the likes of RS and I can easily get it in the 10K resistance required for the EWM.

Not sure about getting the motor rewound, don't know of any place that does such tiny motors around here.

I have a Binzel push/pull that works great, just a wee bit short at times as it is only 5m and also occasionally it can be hard to get into some places with it being a pistol grip. I took a punt on this torch but looks like it didn't pay off this time

 

[mattg]

@Hood, do you have a pinout for the mts255s 7pin remote control socket? I have an old butters spool on gun that I would like try with the mts255s.
Thanks
Matt

 

[Hood]

@Hood, do you have a pinout for the mts255s 7pin remote control socket? I have an old butters spool on gun that I would like try with the mts255s.
Thanks
Matt

I don't have them but could look at the plug for you and should be able to work it out no problem. It will not be for a day or two though as I will likely not be at the workshop.

 

[mattg]

Thanks, very good of you. I've been in touch with rtech but no joy as yet. If they don't get back to me in a week or so I'll maybe give you a shout to check yours. Thanks again, matt

 

[Hood]

I managed to get back to the workshop today
Just looked 10mins ago and was about to reply
Ok here is the pinout.

1 & 2 not used (likely for Tig torch but not checked)
3, 4, 5 for POT, 4 being the wiper.
6 is motor positive
7 is motor negative