Brazing Copper Tube??

[chrisgod]

Hi, new here and just searched but getting LOTS of returns so decided to join and ask my question! Hope you don't mind too much?!

Anyway I am in France and ALL copper to copper joints are made with brazing, (Unless one of us BRITS got in first! ) Last time I brazed anything (other than a piece of tough meat) was 1969 at School! So not a GOOD start? Anyway I own a Rothenburger Quickfire 2 torch head and use MAPP gas anyway for soldering copper.

Now I was told this WOULD be OK for brazing but obviously not too sure of this! I now need to find out as I am going to a job tomorrow which NEEDS a proper joint! So do I go and buy some brazing rods from the local Brico (B&Q) and get on with it? Can I use the same flux I use for the lead solder? And really I suppose I am asking what sort of solder do I need?

I have found some copper to copper rods on ebay and at £20 for 70 HOPE they will be ok? But the brazed joints here LOOK to be either as we used to use at School brass or possibly silver solder? Again looking for some direction please?

So to go over it again, Is the MAPP gas hot enough? Will I be able to use the self cleaning flux paste (From USA and black tub with red lid) and what rods are best?

Thanks guys 'n' gals in anticipation!

Chris Goddard

 

[the snooper]

have a look here it states that they are soldered joints as is used in most of europe.

hope this helps a paragraph from the above link

Copper tube is still the most widely used material for pipe installations and the most secure method of jointing is with soldered joints. A properly soldered joint should never leak whereas there is a risk of leakage with mechanical compression couplings. A professional will only use mechanical couplings where future disconnection may be required for maintenance or replacement.

 

[chrisgod]

Thanks Snooper! Done that one actually! It's something I do use a bit. But asked them a question around a week ago and had no reply? So doing a bit of googling came across this forum!

But it certainly isn't what they use in France whatever they say!! I have been told that the Insurance companies will not allow a claim if a soft soldered joint is used! And I passed this along too for comment.....still waiting!


Thanks

chris

 

[the snooper]

the term brazing actually refers to the process i dont think a standard blowlamp would produce enough heat for brass and if using solder would have to be lead free ive looked around as per your question brass or solder and have had mixed results so confused like you are if they are using brass its a bit extreme for domestic plumbing

 

[malcolm]

Brazing copper would be akin to welding it (the braze will have a similar melting temperature). I can't believe that would be normal practice as the pipes are such thin wall it would be a very fiddly process. All the plumbers would have to become expert TIG welders.

Have the French got their words wrong? The French word for welding is Soudure (which sounds a lot like solder).

 

[piman]

Hello Chris,

I have brazed a lot of copper tube but using oxy\acetylene. You do need care as the braze melts at a temperature not much below the copper. I do use flux but brazing flux not soft solder flux. The other alternatives are silver solder which is a more expensive but is a lower temperature than brass or the rods that refrigeration people use which does not require a flux.
On the topic of flux, I don't think that it is essential given a clean joint, i.e preparation, but a lot of what I do is joining copper to stainless steel so does need the flux in that case.

If you can see some French plumbing, braze is quite yellow and silver solder is silvery yellow with lead solder being very silvery although oxidises quite quickly to a dull grey.

Alec

 

[kingkenny]

chrisgod.i have used mapp on my surefire to braze and silver solder but you need to use a pencil burner to generate the local heat you require,if you can source these rothenberg tips over there should be no problem with the brazing.
no you cannot use laco flux for brazing,either rods with flux in rod or saffire flux.

 

[chrisgod]

Many thanks to all for the replies!

@ Snooper, Just glad it isn't me then who is confused (A BIT!) Thank you!

@ Malcolm, yes it is Soudre and as a LOT of French is from English and vice versa it sort of makes some sense.

@ Alec/Pima, again yes you are of course right. Had a bit more of a look and it seems theer is a mix of brazing rod/flux which I suppose you might expect? But I would use flux anyway as a precaution! Something elses you cannot get in France is Wire Wool! They use Scotchbrite too!

@ Kingkenny, Now that is I suppose the answer I was hoping for?? I can get a pencil nozzle sent over so MAY just try that.

I also did some more digging and gound that the French use Campingaz sets for there brazing! And this was a pretty good site as it also has video and even if you DON'T understand the lingo you can watch the pretty pictures! The last piece of kit is what i think I need and at €95 a chuck not too dear?
http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.objectif-habitat.com/video.php%3Ft%3Dplomberie%26v%3Dsouder-tuyauterie-cuivre-et-laiton&ei=w7ZQS7DdKZKNjAfMwO2UCg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAkQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DLes%2BChalumeaux%2BBigaz%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1G1GGLQ_ENUK354%26sa%3DG%26newwindow%3D1

 

[eil]

You can use a standard silweld coper to coper rod or a silweld 2 which has 2% silver as it runs better with your mapp, no flux needed
http://www.countyweld.co.uk/products1.htm

 

[Tigman]

Have a look at my photo Album theres a few pictures on there which are copper to copper joints and are what I call hard soldered its what the refrigeration guys use , no flux required but the copper must be cherry red for the solder to run , the process is quick but i use oxy acetylene for heat source , brazing a copper to copper joint , the copper if usually flared out and you fill the joint with braze ,this process uses a flux that chips off like glass once cooled down , havent done that for years !

 

[brookie456]

Have a look at my photo Album theres a few pictures on there which are copper to copper joints and are what I call hard soldered its what the refrigeration guys use , no flux required but the copper must be cherry red for the solder to run , the process is quick but i use oxy acetylene for heat source , brazing a copper to copper joint , the copper if usually flared out and you fill the joint with braze ,this process uses a flux that chips off like glass once cooled down , havent done that for years !

...and neither have I!. Many clips 'round ear and muck mickey-taking. Used to braze copper to steel on refrigeration units, 1.5-3 seconds or disaster, as Tigman said, getting copper to cherry and steel hot enough to "take" the brass braze nearly had me in tears (teaches you to a lot about the basics). Also used o/a, with a brilliant little German brass torch (apparently cost a fortune)