Easy way of setting out bolt hole patterns etc

[doobin]

May have been discussed before, but thought I'd share this.

I like to use a CAD program to plot out more complicated bolt circles and patterns. Then print out at 1:1 (don't mess this bit up ) and use spray adhesive to attach to the workpiece. Then it's child's play to punch through the paper, making it easy to locate the mag drill.

It also works great for making templates for plasma cutting, allowing you to easily nest designs.

 

[eLuSiVeMiTe]

Please do check the print size before committing to drilling. Have had issues with apparent 1 to 1 prints in the past

 

[Agroshield]

Please do check the print size before committing to drilling. Have had issues with apparent 1 to 1 prints in the past

Was to reply to the OP the same.

It helps if you always print a 100mm long vertical, horizontal and diagonal line on the page then you can verify the printer's scaling is correct.

And give the page to an American...

 

[dan.taylor.1]

Nevermind the layout, I want more pics of the mini skid and grapple!

 

[doobin]

Please do check the print size before committing to drilling. Have had issues with apparent 1 to 1 prints in the past

Was to reply to the OP the same.

It helps if you always print a 100mm long vertical, horizontal and diagonal line on the page then you can verify the printer's scaling is correct.

And give the page to an American...

Yup, I've had issues with this too hence the caveat 'don't mess this up!'

I have a Mac at the yard, and since DraftSight went premium at stupid money per year, Libre Cad is the only viable option I can find. It works OK, but is buggy and you have to remember the foibles and work around them. Can't print straight from it, have to export to PDF and then print at 100%

 

[julianf]

You would be surprised by the number of printers that don't print to perfect scale.

Photos show error over an A3+ print.

Et14000 is spot on, xp15000 is useless.

 

[doobin]

Nevermind the layout, I want more pics of the mini skid and grapple!

It's a handy little thing. We even rigged it up to power the press on repetetive jobs.

 

[Agroshield]

...Libre Cad is the only viable option I can find.

You might have seen it already, but there is also Qcad. They do a version for mac. It is not free, but it is not costly.

 

[bricol]

I might have made wishbone layout patterns for my trials car in the exactly the same way.

But as I don't have anything bigger than A4 at home, it was export sections of drawings from CAD to pdf, email home, open, print, then scale print until correct. Worked well.

 

[doobin]

You might have seen it already, but there is also Qcad. They do a version for mac. It is not free, but it is not costly.

Thanks. I have tried this before, but for some reason abandoned it in favour of LibreCad. Just tried the trial again and it seems very much like LibreCad but less buggy. So I've bought the professionel version and the eBook.

 

[ukracer]

Thanks. I have tried this before, but for some reason abandoned it in favour of LibreCad. Just tried the trial again and it seems very much like LibreCad but less buggy. So I've bought the professionel version and the eBook.

How easy is this to use? Compared to gusion for example.

 

[Agroshield]

Compared to gusion for example.

Fusion? LibreCAD and QCad are 2D drafting packages rather than 3D modelling software. Hence, they are quite different to Fusion. LC and QC are more like an electronic old school drawing board where you would draw a plan view, side view and elevation rather than model the solid object. They are good if you are making something on a lathe and mill and need a dimensioned drawing for machining (e.g. that shows tangent points of curves, hole centres, lengths and diameters).

For something like plasma cutting individual parts, which is essentially a 2D operation, they are superb because they can produce a nice, smooth closed shape that the cutter will like and adding releief to internal corners is very easy. Even then however, if you have any kind of assembly (like a welding square with tab and slot), 3D packages allow you to put together the individual parts to make sure they fit properly. That is a little more time consuming in 2D.

If you are learning from scratch, I would go for 3D modelling. It is frustrating and a steep learning curve, but a lot of what are good habits in 2D wil slow you down and become bad practice in 3D. Even if you have some long disused 2D knowledge from your schooldays, I would still go for 3D as it opens up more opportunities. If you start afresh and endure the pain, you do not have to unlearn stuff.

 

[James1979]

Fusion? LibreCAD and QCad are 2D drafting packages rather than 3D modelling software. Hence, they are quite different to Fusion. LC and QC are more like an electronic old school drawing board where you would draw a plan view, side view and elevation rather than model the solid object. They are good if you are making something on a lathe and mill and need a dimensioned drawing for machining (e.g. that shows tangent points of curves, hole centres, lengths and diameters).

For something like plasma cutting individual parts, which is essentially a 2D operation, they are superb because they can produce a nice, smooth closed shape that the cutter will like and adding releief to internal corners is very easy. Even then however, if you have any kind of assembly (like a welding square with tab and slot), 3D packages allow you to put together the individual parts to make sure they fit properly. That is a little more time consuming in 2D.

If you are learning from scratch, I would go for 3D modelling. It is frustrating and a steep learning curve, but a lot of what are good habits in 2D wil slow you down and become bad practice in 3D. Even if you have some long disused 2D knowledge from your schooldays, I would still go for 3D as it opens up more opportunities. If you start afresh and endure the pain, you do not have to unlearn stuff.

I’d agree with that, for what it’s worth.

There’s a free QCAD for mac, by the way - I run it. I only use it as a converter from vector stuff I’ve done in Inkscape. It’s not very intuitive.

Emachineshop is much better.

Fusion is good. You’re 100% correct there. I can’t get it to run at the moment- I’m running Catalina and it needs the next thing up. As it’s web based now I can’t just install it and be done with it. If they upgrade it their end past my system then I’m screwed which is where I’m at.

Had a play the other night on a friends Aspire CAD. Easier than fusion to use by far. Let’s you do tool changes and all sorts of CAM stuff. I know Fusion does too but this is far more intuitive. Cheaper too. And it’s standalone.

Just general observations that may assist someone……

 

[hotponyshoes]

On the subject of printing templates out,
I got a large format printer that takes paper from a roll. It's about 1m wide.

It's basically just a big ink jet printer but there was some sort of option on that to set it up or calibrate it. Some sort of plotter setting maybe?

I've used it to do 6m long prints for using as templates to cut windows into the sides of horse lorrys and its as accurate as I can measure over that sort of distance.

I've also got a sticker cutter. That seems as precise as I can measure the output with calipers. That's A3 wide I think and also takes a roll. I'm pretty sure you can get a pen to go in that rather than a blade.

Neither were particular expensive and are a lot easier to use than trying to get a regular printer to print 1:1 then sticking all the a4 sheets together!

What I would really like to do is build a massive multi function table with a cnc plasma and wood router mounted on it.
Then add a marker pen holder head so I could draw the cut outs first, check the windows look right then get the router to cut the holes out!

 

[James1979]

On the subject of printing templates out,
I got a large format printer that takes paper from a roll. It's about 1m wide.

It's basically just a big ink jet printer but there was some sort of option on that to set it up or calibrate it. Some sort of plotter setting maybe?

I've used it to do 6m long prints for using as templates to cut windows into the sides of horse lorrys and its as accurate as I can measure over that sort of distance.

I've also got a sticker cutter. That seems as precise as I can measure the output with calipers. That's A3 wide I think and also takes a roll. I'm pretty sure you can get a pen to go in that rather than a blade.

Neither were particular expensive and are a lot easier to use than trying to get a regular printer to print 1:1 then sticking all the a4 sheets together!

What I would really like to do is build a massive multi function table with a cnc plasma and wood router mounted on it.
Then add a marker pen holder head so I could draw the cut outs first, check the windows look right then get the router to cut the holes out!

That would be cool.

I’ve a marker pen holder for mine. I’ll send the stl if you want.

Problem with the CNC plasma / router idea is you have to build it to accommodate the router forces. That makes the fine ball screws necessary for plasma accuracy expensive. Apparently.

Went and looked at a home brew CNC router the other night. He can cut 2” oak in a oner but was asking about plasma and we sort of decided his wouldn’t be accurate enough.

Also the plasma is really messy. Wouldn’t want a good bit of furniture grade wood on mine!

 

[Agroshield]

...its as accurate as I can measure...

I think a lot of the inaccuracy comes from the paper itself and the feed mechanism rather than the head. Paper is not a very stable material. Humidity and temperature affect it so the printer is not best situated in a workshop environment. Leave it in the office and it will work a lot better.

With A4, for example, there's very little stress on the paper side-to-side as it goes through a printer, but there will be more in the pulling direction. With the rolled paper, free running of the spool under all load conditions is important so it does not change its characteristics from a new roll to an empty one. The old damp dyline stuff and duplicators that smelled of ammonia (thankfully long gone) were very poor at keeping stuff in proportion.

Is a laser controllable enough to draw on paper for checking purposes and then turn up the juice to cut other parts?

 

[hotponyshoes]

That would be cool.

I’ve a marker pen holder for mine. I’ll send the stl if you want.

Problem with the CNC plasma / router idea is you have to build it to accommodate the router forces. That makes the fine ball screws necessary for plasma accuracy expensive. Apparently.

Went and looked at a home brew CNC router the other night. He can cut 2” oak in a oner but was asking about plasma and we sort of decided his wouldn’t be accurate enough.

Also the plasma is really messy. Wouldn’t want a good bit of furniture grade wood on mine!

It's only a pipe dream at the moment but I was thinking of something like a plasma table with slats and a water bed.
Fit a roller shutter door to one end of the table to cover the slats/water when not in use.
Mount a couple of sliding Y axis rails that can be unlocked and positioned into place to clamp sheets of wood onto.
Then make up individual x axis, one on screws for heavy stuff like a router, one on belts for lighter stuff like plasma/pen/laser.

Or, if its possible, use something like a ball screw that turns to drive the router gantry and then mount motors on the plasma gantry so it drives itself along the thread of the ball screw?

I'm thinking if the table was big enough you could have multiple x axis rails mounted onto it and just park them at one end when not in use.

I could use both a cnc plasma and a cnc router but both would only really be useful if I could get big sheets in them and I can't justify the space for multiple machines in the workshop for the infrequent use they get...

 

[James1979]

Be cool.

Chap i saw the other night has a lathe attachment under where the gantry parks for doing Queen Anne legs. It’s impressive especially as he built it himself

 

[hotponyshoes]

I've got a little combination wood working thing, that's a lathe, sander, planer, table saw, fret saw and so on all in one.
None of the tools are particularly good but for the area it takes up and the cost compared to buying even cheap version of the tools individually its pretty good for the very limited amount of wood bothering I ever do.

A diy multi function table appeals to me for the same sort of reasons aside from the space saving.
The cosy of ready made big machines is not justifiable to me.
The time to make diy versions of several machines is something I don't have.

Then there is the cost of the components,
I'd guess that just the steel for the base of a router table would be £300 or so.
OK, I could probably get lighter steel/alloy for a plasma table for half that but if one table does 5 functions then that's only £60 each

Same with the motors etc.
Although I've got no idea if it would be possible to do something like just have one set of motors driving the x/y axis and then just physically whichever gantry I wanted to use.
I can envisage a system where you had a driven y gantry with nothing on it that you could send to either end of the bed and then just drop a couple of pins in to connect it to either x gantry for plasma or router.

A very large portion of my design (and the cost effectiveness) would be dependent on the servo/stepper/whatever motor(s) being able to run at either high speed or high torque though and I don't know if they can do that?

 

[Agroshield]

That makes the fine ball screws necessary for plasma accuracy expensive.

My initial reaction is that statement might be problematic. Why would plasma demand more or less accuracy than routing?

My guess, or rather a point for discussion, is that the combination of speed and rigidity, and their unwelcome offspring, inertia, required for the two processes are incompatible.

If he was plasma cutting 2" steel, the speed would be in the same field as that for routing 2" oak. Starting, accelerating and changing direction would all be similar. But on thin plasma stuff, you need to go fast and nimble, so a big, rigid setup works against you, like trying to handbrake turn the Queen Mary.

You might be able to build a machine that hits a sweet spot in the middle - reasonably lightly built so the routing part is limited to multiple shallow cuts and the plasma part only works on 3mm upwards and not sheet metal. It would be interesting to see where that compromise lands - fast enough to plasma but strong enough to rout (route? root?).

A relatively easy option might be to have a different, easily switchable, ratio between motor and leadscrew for each mode (maybe direct drive for plasma and 1:2 reduction for router).