First welds - how bad is it? (pic)

[Jorge]

Totally accept this is rubbish. Its my first welds using an auto dark helmet.

It's 3mm MS using a 2.5 rod, AC welder set at 100A'ish (no exact marking on machine). I tried slow (L), faster (M) and overlapping (R). I don't think there is anything I have done any good, but I'd appreciate any advice on what to do to improve my practising sessions.

Thanks,
Jorge.
PS: I'm gonna try practising by making a simple welder trolley. Could anyone tell me the best rods/settings/technique for welding 1.5mm 4cm x 2cm square tube in what is in effect 'T'/butt joints.

 

[rich r]

It looks like you're struggling to control the arc length - don't worry, everyone does at first (and when they've not welded for a while).

Try holding the rod so it's just resting on the surface, and is about 30 degrees from vertical, then dragging it along - ie as it gets shorter, allow your hand to drop lower and lower so the angle stays the same and the rod is resting on the flux coating.

Speed wise - your second one would probably be OK if the arc length stayed a bit shorter.

 

[Country Joe]

Hi there, Jorge.

Not looking too bad for a first go - you're too hard on yourself!

Looks as if your travel speed could do with being a more even, and that maybe the rod was waving around a bit un-controllably. You can always use your other hand to keep it steady, especially when you begin the weld, and the electrode is at it's longest.

When the travel speed is too high, you can end up with thinner, stringy-looking welds, and obviously if you go too slowly, the weld can seem to "pile up" - this would apply to MIG, too.

I'm assuming you're dragging the rod, as opposed to pushing, as I don't see loads of inclusions, but you have to keep the arc as short as you can, (while the rod gets shorter & shorter) constantly compensating for the reducing length of the electrode, and as you pull the weld along, keep the rod at an angle of about 15 degrees from vertical.

The middle one looks best to me, apart from the central part, where it looks as if you might have travelled too quickly for a moment.
I'd keep at it the way you are, but build up a row of welds, very close together, or even touching, then turn the workpiece around by 90 degrees, and carry on building up a series of welds in the other direction - this tends to give a feel for how the weld gets "laid down", and the welds will tend to get straighter and more even, as you continue across, filling the plate with lines of weld.

This method also has a hidden bonus, in that it lets you do lots of welds, whilst using the same work-piece for quite some time!
Hope all this makes some kind of sense,
All the Best,
CJ

EDIT - Sorry Rich r - didn't see your post! (I'm a slow typist!) Must seem as if I'm echoing you!

 

[Country Joe]

Hey, only just noticed your question!

I'd be wanting to use smaller rods for your welder trolley. The smallest rods I tend to use are 2.4s (2.5s?), but it'll be really tricky to weld your 1.5mm tubing with an arc welder, anyway. I'm not even sure if 1.6mm rods exist any more - but if they do, they'd be much easier to use.**

If you try to turn the power down enough with the 2.5s, so as not to blow through the tubing, they will be hard (even impossible) to strike, and also be tricky to maintain an arc when so far "under amped".

All the Best,
CJ

** I'm guessing that the smaller rods have become harder to get, because lighter gauge steel tends to be done using a MIG nowadays.

 

[usmcruz]

You have much to learn grasshopper! keep practicing, and youtube welding videos.

 

[triumph]

hi Jorge, arc is how i started out and well still at it 20 years later not a brill welder meself but do ok , if u practice its amazing how quickly u will pick arc up it is a very useful skill to have along side mig 1.6 and 2mm rods are the ones i find best for motorbike jobs and odd bracket, trying to keep a constant movement while welding helps as well as weld distance from work piece.best of luck craig

 

[rich r]

I'd master 2.5mm before moving down to 2.0mm and 1.6mm rods. The 1.6mm rods burn down so fast that you really have to move quickly to keep the arc length short enough. That's not to say it's really hard, just that once you've got the 'feel' for where the tip of the rod wants to be relative to the surface and the weld pool, it's more easy to adjust your movements for the smaller rods.

1.5mm metal is very thin to be arc welding, not impossible, but not at all easy. Even with 1.6mm rods you'll be blowing through if you're not careful. Having said that, I've repaired a garden spade that had cracked with 2.0mm rods, just by letting the weld build up then grinding it back afterwards. I wouldn't vouch for it being the strongest weld in the world, but it'll be sufficient to get a few more years out of my spade

 

[Jorge]

Hello Rich r, Country Joe, usmcruz and Hi again Triumph,

Thank you all very much for the replies and advice. You guys are geniuses, while reading your responses I can relate to all the things your saying that I'm doing wrong.

I do have some 1.6mm rods and find them much harder (not that 2.5 rods are easy for me) to strike an arc and get a bead running and then, as you guys say, they burn down so fast I keep breaking the arc.

Please excuse the short reply for the moment, I have what you guys have said ringing in my ears and I'm going straight down to my garage to practise what you say.

Jorge

 

[Dev]

Something that helped me was to use my other hand to hold the rod close to the base, the way you would hold a pen, to help control it when it's longest.

 

[rich r]

Yeah - I did that too. Good advice, as it means you can control the tip of the rod better to ensure it stays where you want it.

Now I tend to just rest it on the side of my left index finger, and remove the finger once the rod gets short enough to be controlled by my right hand - or when the heat from the rod gets through my glove

 

[Jorge]

Good morning guy's and Hi again Dev,

Yesterday I 'tried' all of your tips and advice... thank you.

I posted some pics (below) of the results, I think I have a LOT more practising to go as I'm sure they show the entire range of possible mistakes.

The first pic was trying 1.6mm rods. I must admit that I was moving the welders output up and down to try to strike the arc without getting the rod fused to the workpiece, I found this hard with 1.6 to the extent that I was ruining many rods and could only release from the stinger.

Pics 2 & 3 were back to 2.5mm rods and again, I'm still having trouble with striking the arc and starting the run. Believe it or not, I was trying to follow the previous welds in a straight line, you can see I failed miserably.

I was trying to analyse what I'm doing wrong and I think I starting with all the good advice in my head that you guys are giving me and then as soon as I have trouble and spend minutes trying to get the arc/run going it hit me as a surprise when it does start and I run the weld in a semi-panic.

I have in my head other things that I've read about watching the weld pool and the slag, but I can't identify this whilst I'm welding, all I see is an orange blob... which really describes my welding pretty accurately.

I should ask... am I taking liberties on the forum by posting so many pics and I hope you guys don't object. Thanks to the forum admin/mods also for making the forum available.

Jorge

 

[rich r]

Hi Jorge,

You have some beads there that are fairly good on the first and second photos. The others seem to look like you're having trouble maintaining a constant arc length or speed. Those will come with practise - you're not doing badly!

The penetration is poor too, but concentrate on getting nice smooth, even, straight lines first, then you need to reduce the angle from vertical and increase the amps a little. But that doesn't matter so much at the moment.

If you're having problems with the rod sticking, try gently 'wiping' it on the surface, like you're striking a match. ie aim for the rod to come down to the surface but be moving away from it slightly as soon as the arc strikes. Some people find tapping to start works best for them, some striking, and some can do it without touching the surface at all! You'll also have problems if your rods are damp or cold, so try drying them in a low oven for a bit. Do you find they strike more easily once you've used about half the rod?

Identifying the weld pool and slag is tricky - some people can tell the difference easily, some struggle. I can usually see it now (to me, the weld pool looks like rippling water, and the slag is more green and looks like flame) most of the time, but not always. If you concentrate on moving the rod at a steady rate you'll find a speed that leaves a nice weld, and once that happens you can spend more time looking at the weld pool to see how it relates to the end of the rod.

Keep practising - I've got loads of bits of metal that look like yours, until I started to get the hang of it! Another thing you can try once you get a nice straight smooth line of weld about 4cm long is to run the next line right next to it (don't bother chipping the slag off) - so the side of the rod is running along the side of the previous weld. Then when you get to the end of that, start another next to it. Then when you've got a square 4cm wide and 4cm long, let the slag cool a little and remove it (hopefully as a nice square) and then look at your welds. If they're blobby, try again but at a different speed.

 

[Country Joe]

Hi there, Jorge
You're not taking liberties at all, that's what the Forum is here for!

In the first picture (with the smaller electrodes) it looks as if your travel speed is more consistent, i.e. more of an even width to the welds, but they also look better as they're more or less in a straight line. It seems as if it's quite difficult to run two welds right next to each other, in some of the pics, though.
Having said that, they will improve, just by laying down weld after weld, so close together, they're almost blending in with the last run. Arc length, even travel speed, rod angle and going in a straight line are the main things to worry about here, I think.

The molten weld should appear to be the glowing orange, as you said, but if you look carefully, you should be able to see some filthy dark green/blackish-looking stuff seemingly floating on the top, moving about like a separate liquid that doesn't want to dissolve. It might be that your headshield isn't adjusted quite right, or like me, you're getting on in years and things get harder to distinguish - please don't take that as rudeness, though, it's not intended like that.

I sometimes find the rod will stick if you don't give it quite enough amps, I'd try to go towards the upper end of the range stated on the box, to avoid it sticking at first. I think my inverter has some kind of "anti stick" function, so it would maybe happen far more often to me without it, but I'll never know for sure, but the electrodes should behave a bit better once they've been warmed up - either by sticking or welding!

Once you've got used to the sudden-ness of the arc starting, you can usually pause momentarily, and then get going at your own pace. The last weld will give you the best clue as to how to vary your speed etc - usually by how "stretched" or "bunched up" the weld appears to be. The steel you're using there looks nice & thick, so I'd imagine you could really slow right down without it burning through, unless you're very close to an edge, of course.

You could relax a bit more, I'd guess, and do away with the sudden panic (as you called it) to get under way, as once the weld gets going, it's far less likely to stick - everyone gets irritated when it sticks, but that's usually only right at the start, as you're striking up the initial arc.
Don't want to seem hasty in my reply, but I'm just going off to the dentist, so I'll be gone for a while, but others will be chipping in too, I'm sure!
All the Best,
CJ

 

[Dev]

Hi Jorge,
You'll also have problems if your rods are damp or cold, so try drying them in a low oven for a bit.

Don't imagine cold and damp being much of a problem in Murcia,usually the opposite

Which reminds me - even if it is warm where you're working remember to make sure you don't weld with bare arms, the UV light from the arc can cause burns on exposed skin.

My pallid pasty skin may be more susceptible than most to this but it's worth bearing in mind.

The brand of rods can make a difference too I believe. If you're just using cheap ones from Brico depot then better quality may get better results.

Having said that probably not until you get a bit more practice. Bank on using up the whole box of the sticks you've got just to learn on.

It's not as easy as some people make it look.

 

[PTvor]

These are the sort of results everyone gets when they are starting out and it takes practice to get better.

If your welder will run 3.2mm rods and you can find some thickish steel, 5mm or thicker, you'll find it far easier. Forget 1.6mm rods for now.

 

[Jorge]

Hi Guy's,

Thanks for the detailed replies. I know it isn't for me to judge, as a newb/dummy, but I honestly see the sense and logic in what you guy's are saying... brilliant. I've got to train myself to put it into action.

Rich, I am trying both the 'match striking' and the 'tapping' methods to strike the arc without getting anywhere near consistent arc's. I start at first with very gentle swipes/taps and sometimes finish up rubbing and tapping very hard, sometimes I find I have to even put the rod on the material and kind of force it in a circular/rocking motion before it will even spark!. Other times, when the rod has run one bead (and is hot), it will arc on a new bead with no problems. Very frustrating, but I know its my own inexperience. Rich, something you said... is it ok to run consecutive beads side-by-side without chipping the slag off, I've been chipping/brushing between welds, but your suggestion would perhaps keep me going better.

Country Joe, I will try upping the Amps. My welder only shows markings at about 30A degrees (80A – 115A as an example) and I did find it started to splatter when I went really high. No I'm not looking for a way to make excuses for myself... again I know its me. Joe, no offence taken at all, I wish I had learnt this when I had younger eyes, 61 with diabetic affected eyes is another strike against me.

Dev, having said that, all I have tried is 'Cevik' (don't know if they're any good) brand rods (from Aki if you know them), It would be nice to find a supplier who does other brands. I do agree Dev, not easy and I have great respect for you guy's that can do it and are also happy to pass on your knowledge.

I've run out of scrap to practise on, so I'll give you guy's a rest for the weekend. Thank you all very much, I'll let you know how I get on when I have some more material.

Have a good weekend.
Jorge.

 

[Jorge]

These are the sort of results everyone gets when they are starting out and it takes practice to get better.

If your welder will run 3.2mm rods and you can find some thickish steel, 5mm or thicker, you'll find it far easier. Forget 1.6mm rods for now.

Hi again PTvor,

Sorry I was slow typing and didn't initially catch your reply.

Thanks for the tip. My machine is supposedly rated to 160A, I don't know if the Spanish domestic mains supply will allow me to crank it up that far, but I'll look out for some 3.2 and 5mm. I'm happy to try anything to help improve.

Thanks and have a nice weekend.
Jorge.

 

[rich r]

Running the beads next to each other without chipping the slag off is fine for now - you're only practising, not aiming to make a strong, clean, metallurgically perfect joint. Once your hand and arm move smoothly and naturally maintain the arc, then you won't need to lean the rod against anything.

For 2.5mm E6013 rods, I tend to run around 80A. But all makes of rod are different, so you may find yours work better with a little more. 3.2mm rods are easier than 2.5mm - but I found learning with 2.5mm better as you can get away with a less good technique using bigger rods.

Keep at it - one day, you'll suddenly find you can lay perfectly straight, even beads of weld on that plate. Then it's time to get another bit of plate and start having a go at joining them together. You may actually find that it can be a little easier when constrained by the edges of the metal...

 

[PTvor]

As far as I'm aware, Spanish mains is 230V and standard Euro plugs are used, good for 16A, so provided you have the right rated breaker, and maybe the right grade of breaker, in the distribution panel for the circuit the socket is on, you should be fine up to 160A. We struggle slightly with 240V 13A mains in the UK, but we can usually burn 3.2mm rods from a standard domestic socket.

However, you should only need 130A at most to run a 3.2mm E6013, so you don't need to run the welder on maximum amps anyway. If you set the current too high, you get a lot of spatter and you can tell it's not right.

Rods less than 3.2mm are more demanding as to technique and the quality of rods is more critical as they get thinner.

 

[Ed.]

If you are having a hard time seeing the weld bead as you are welding then you may want to lighten up the settings on the auto darkening helmet, It is very hard to lay down a good bead if you can't see what is going on.

I don't know if you wear glasses or not but there are "cheater" lenses available for some masks, (not all helmets have provision for this but you may be able to tape one in if yours doesn't) which are a plastic magnifying lens for the helmet. As my eyes are a bit dodgy due to old age, I use a cheater lens and glasses underneath my helmet.

To help weld in a straight line try putting down a line using soap stone first.

Also if you are running continous beads at the top range of your welder, you may be going over the duty cycle of the unit and so the more beads you lay down continuously the worse they get, You may need to take breaks between welds to let the welder cool down.

As to running beads side by side without chipping the slag off, you can as a practice run, but no if it is an actual weld itself. I personally would chip off each slag so I could see how I went.

Another thing to consider is the distance from the power point to the circuit breaker and the wire size between the two. If the distance is too great and the wire size too small, the wires in between the heat up and causes more resistance which causes less current/voltage to be available to the welder.

I used to run a 235 Unimig off a 15amp circuit and it would give problem welds. Upped the cable to the circuit board from 2.5mm to 4mm and no more dramas.

Just something to consider.