Help with some arc welds

[jimbo84]

I always struggle with fillet welds, I can do them pretty well on the DC inverter but I think this is because the better machine is covering for my poor technique.

Whenever I do them on AC they always go off and miss the joint, or have a load of slag in them.

Oxford oil cooled at 80amps, 2.5mm Bohler AWS 6013 rod.

Is it rod angle that's the issue? I ask this because I altered the angle to a bit more towards 90 along the travel line and it helped (still 45 degree into the joint favouring the upper piece) and things improved. The problem with putting the angle more vertical is that I sometimes get the pool (molten slag maybe) on the wrong side of the rod which suggests it's too vertical along the travel line.

Or is it amps, running too cold and needs more current? I feel like I'm having to rush the joint though which suggests it's too hot.

The weld sounds good or at least it does to me, crackling frying pan.

Totally missed the joint




Adjusted angle which gave a better result


but still not perfect at that angle

 

[Mick Annick]

I can’t help, but if it’s any consolation I have the same problem

 

[Paul.]

Turn the amps up for a fillet, I would run that at 90 to 100 amps, or even a touch higher, and keep the arc tight

 

[voipio]

Looks like the arc is too long. Once the arc is going, the metal core of the rod will be melting somewhere behind the end of the flux coating. I quite often end up guiding the rod so that the end of the flux is touching the workpiece.

 

[Memmeddu]

I always struggle with fillet welds, I can do them pretty well on the DC inverter but I think this is because the better machine is covering for my poor technique.

Whenever I do them on AC they always go off and miss the joint, or have a load of slag in them.

Oxford oil cooled at 80amps, 2.5mm Bohler AWS 6013 rod.

Is it rod angle that's the issue? I ask this because I altered the angle to a bit more towards 90 along the travel line and it helped (still 45 degree into the joint favouring the upper piece) and things improved. The problem with putting the angle more vertical is that I sometimes get the pool (molten slag maybe) on the wrong side of the rod which suggests it's too vertical along the travel line.

Or is it amps, running too cold and needs more current? I feel like I'm having to rush the joint though which suggests it's too hot.

The weld sounds good or at least it does to me, crackling frying pan.

Totally missed the joint
View attachment 229108

View attachment 229111

Adjusted angle which gave a better result
View attachment 229109

but still not perfect at that angle
View attachment 229110

Rod angle and tight Arc is the key
90 amp should be enough , but if you need you can go up to 105A
The rod angle should be around 35 degrees favouring the upper piece
Travel angle 45°
Arc gap? Push the rod in the joint till it has a slight bend (it will be like it has a spring load )
It will work
I had the same problem , and I still have it sometimes on thin metal and in bad fit up condition expecially using 6013 which is a bastard rod (if not family friendly please edit @Wozzaaah )
Because it's easy to run it leaves good aesthetic appeal beads but the slag is very hard to control and it's very difficult to remove from the holes so repairing the bead it's something annoying because the will not be filled with metal but slag

 

[mdr]

Perhaps a touch cold; aim is a little off too; however, the overriding issue looks to be arc length (as previously posted) - too long. I highly recommend getting some e6011 (runs on AC or DC+) and running some fillets with that to practice - e6013 is, in my humble opinion a horrible beginner rod because the slag runs so much. With low amps it's a swirling mass of lava!

E6011 has completely different slag to e6013. While e6011 may not be "pretty" as it's a fast freeze rod it'll do wonders for your practice on arc length and hard to get slag inclusions (e6013 is easy to get slag inclusions). If you long arc an e6011 it tends to go out - teaches you to keep it tight.

If you want to keep with e6013 then you have to have adjust the rod angle and amps to keep the slag behind the tip of the electrode. And because you cannot lean the rod over more than to 45° (bit too much really) you must increase the amps to 'blow' the slag back and out of the way.

Start the arc 0.5 to 1 inch in from the beginning of the bead; move the rod to the edge of the fillet; hold for a moment longer than you think is necessary (it's cold in comparison at this point) - count 1, count 2; move along the join at a speed where the puddle width is about twice the rod diameter (there or there about - too narrow = slow down; too wide = speed up; bit wide then a bit narrow and back again = you're not comfortable/supported and wobbling about); if the slag is under or around the tip of the rod: stop. Then chip+brush and then increase by 5-10 amps and practice your restarts. Don't just plough on. Think of the rod as a hose pipe of water blowing the slag back and out of the way.

 

[8ob]

It may be just me but I would be on a 3.2 6013 rod @120 amps for that fillet. Thats not thin angle iron.

Bob

 

[mdr]

It may be just me but I would be on a 3.2 6013 rod @120 amps for that fillet. Thats not thin angle iron.

Bob

Would it be true to say that you may find 120amps on your welder with your supply won't be 120 amps on, say, my welder with my supply? Hence exact amperage isn't always going to help.

 

[8ob]

Would it be true to say that you may find 120amps on your welder with your supply won't be 120 amps on, say, my welder with my supply? Hence exact amperage isn't always going to help.

100% and something I have been banging on about for a long time.

Bob

 

[Mark 2]

It may be just me but I would be on a 3.2 6013 rod @120 amps for that fillet. Thats not thin angle iron.

Bob

It does look like 6mm plate?, If so I'd be using a 3.2 rod.

 

[jimbo84]

Turn the amps up for a fillet, I would run that at 90 to 100 amps, or even a touch higher, and keep the arc tight
View attachment 229114
View attachment 229115

I'll try the higher amps and see if that helps. I aim for my welds to look like that but they never do!

Looks like the arc is too long. Once the arc is going, the metal core of the rod will be melting somewhere behind the end of the flux coating. I quite often end up guiding the rod so that the end of the flux is touching the workpiece.

Rod angle and tight Arc is the key
90 amp should be enough , but if you need you can go up to 105A
The rod angle should be around 35 degrees favouring the upper piece
Travel angle 45°
Arc gap? Push the rod in the joint till it has a slight bend (it will be like it has a spring load )
It will work
I had the same problem , and I still have it sometimes on thin metal and in bad fit up condition expecially using 6013 which is a bastard rod (if not family friendly please edit @Wozzaaah )
Because it's easy to run it leaves good aesthetic appeal beads but the slag is very hard to control and it's very difficult to remove from the holes so repairing the bead it's something annoying because the will not be filled with metal but slag

Perhaps a touch cold; aim is a little off too; however, the overriding issue looks to be arc length (as previously posted) - too long. I highly recommend getting some e6011 (runs on AC or DC+) and running some fillets with that to practice - e6013 is, in my humble opinion a horrible beginner rod because the slag runs so much. With low amps it's a swirling mass of lava!

E6011 has completely different slag to e6013. While e6011 may not be "pretty" as it's a fast freeze rod it'll do wonders for your practice on arc length and hard to get slag inclusions (e6013 is easy to get slag inclusions). If you long arc an e6011 it tends to go out - teaches you to keep it tight.

If you want to keep with e6013 then you have to have adjust the rod angle and amps to keep the slag behind the tip of the electrode. And because you cannot lean the rod over more than to 45° (bit too much really) you must increase the amps to 'blow' the slag back and out of the way.

Start the arc 0.5 to 1 inch in from the beginning of the bead; move the rod to the edge of the fillet; hold for a moment longer than you think is necessary (it's cold in comparison at this point) - count 1, count 2; move along the join at a speed where the puddle width is about twice the rod diameter (there or there about - too narrow = slow down; too wide = speed up; bit wide then a bit narrow and back again = you're not comfortable/supported and wobbling about); if the slag is under or around the tip of the rod: stop. Then chip+brush and then increase by 5-10 amps and practice your restarts. Don't just plough on. Think of the rod as a hose pipe of water blowing the slag back and out of the way.

It seems the general consensus is my arc length is too long, I'll try keeping it tighter. I'll have a look for some different rods too, I've only ever used 6013s so it would be good to try some different ones and see how they compare.

It may be just me but I would be on a 3.2 6013 rod @120 amps for that fillet. Thats not thin angle iron.

Bob

It does look like 6mm plate?, If so I'd be using a 3.2 rod.

It is quite hefty it's 40x5mm flat bar, I probably should be on a bigger rod/higher amps but still get the same issues on smaller/thinner pieces so it's definitely a technique issue too.

Thanks to everyone for all the pointers/advice, there's plenty for me to be going at there

 

[mdr]

I did a quick "bad welding test" this morning (it was no trouble because I'm very good at bad welding ).

6mm thick flat bar steel. 90amps. Esab e6013 2.5mm. DCEP.

I'm a lefty so I started on the right and ran to the left. Looking from the right to the left I started with a tight arc and got about halfway across and stopped. Then, without changing any settings nor rod angle I started half an inch away from the end of the first bead and just held a longer arc and kind of ignored that the rod was burning up and away from the work.



Close up shots. First half of the weld with a tight arc...


Second half of the bead (if you can call it that ) with a longer arc...


I think this proves that just having too long of an arc can turn perfectly good machine settings, rod size, and rod angle into a horrible mess.

 

[jimbo84]

Had a quick attempt today taking note of all the advice, welder set to the next notch up, 100A, kept a much tighter arc, big improvement but still with room for improvement.


Tried an even tighter arc, almost felt wrong like it was in the puddle and would stick to the material but it didn't and an even better result.



I just need to keep practicing them now to try and keep the consistency up.

 

[MichaelV]

Comin’ on very well, Jim.
If not already, try introducing some gentle manipulation of the rod. This often helps, I find, with 6013 by helping segregate puddle from slag. Make sure you are running electrode negative; the majority of 6013 are designed for that, albeit some will run on either polarity (or even AC).

Michael

 

[voipio]

Looking much better, especially the last test. You'll soon find out how far you need to push the rod into the weld before it shorts. As Memmdu said, the rod might even bend a little from the force being applied.

 

[Feet 'n Inches]

Looks like you've started to crack it . . . well done!

 

[Munkul]

nice one mate. A DC inverter with Arc force helps here, it almost self regulates the arc length so you can push the rod in harder without snuffing the arc. On older machines, it might just mean you turn it up a bit.

 

[tom2207]

great progress ,,, its only tricky for the first twenty years ,, then it gets easier ....

 

[jimbo84]

I've never had many issues on the DC inverter although they've never been great. Problems always been with AC.

Another go today (AC).
Root pass, have to stop half way as it takes the garage breaker out otherwise.


couple of passes over the top (again stopping in the middle to stop the breaker tripping), not very neat but they're continuous beads which is progress

Looking much better, especially the last test. You'll soon find out how far you need to push the rod into the weld before it shorts. As Memmdu said, the rod might even bend a little from the force being applied.

I find I'm almost dragging the rod against the steel with the flux it is so close, my arc length has been way too long for years on all positions I reckon. Every day is a school day as they say

 

[tom2207]

I find I'm almost dragging the rod against the steel with the flux it is so close, my arc length has been way too long for years on all positions I reckon. Every day is a school day as they say [/QUOTE]
are you left handed by chance ??