I guess I wasnt born to be a welder. Awful first 2 days attempts.... HELP please :)

[Ali The Farmer]

Hello all....

I am trying to construct a barn roof and having great fun/difficulties. The roof will have 7m long galvanized roof sheeting, supported by box profile steel supports.

Currently I am trying to arc weld 2mm thick 40mm x 40mm box profile on to 2mm thick 60mm x 40mm sections. The air temp is 25c, the electrodes are dry, numbered 6013 (2.5mm), and the Invertech 181 rig I am using is set at 70amps (electrode box says 60-90 for 2.5mm).

I have read all the advice, but most of time, the bead is non existent once cleaned up. Initially, it looks great, but what I end up with is a lot of slag, which after chipping off, I find I only have single large spots of weld on each base metal, but hardly any spots of join, or none at all.

See images below:

Can any of you more experienced guys here help me with some advice on what I am doing wrong?

Many many thanks in anticipation!

 

[Seano]

Can I just ask if you have attempted any kind of welding in the past Ali....? if not then imho I really think that what is possibly going to be a structural piece of steel is not the right thing to learn on, one of the first things to get right would be your prep work before you even begin to lay out (remove the dark grey mill scale), which I see no evidence of, don't get me wrong I am not attempting to shoot you down we all had to begin somewhere but I do think you need to have someone with more experience of this on board to help and guide you, only my opinion.

Just another observation, although E6013 are seen as a pretty universal rod they are notorious for giving pigeon chit welds for the inexperienced welder, E6011 are much better and easier to work with imho, but then that is subjective i suppose.

 

[octo0072000]

as above get one of the locals who can weld and watch him do it or learn too weld first extension lead looks to thin as well try upping the amps first

 

[chunkolini]

I would agree with wheelchair welder on this one.
Roofs kill people when they fail.
Start on simple projects eg a work bench. Or even start practising on scrap and try some destructive testing first.
On a positive note all the pieces look to fit together well and seem straight.
Just noticed you mentioned 'electrodes' and seem to be using an arc welder.
I think you have posted in the wrong section? you might be better off in the Arc welding section. Note, your first attempts are a million times better then mine were.
Good luck, Chunko'.

 

[keith19]

Greetings, Ali, and welcome to the forum.
I would agree with those who have posted so far. You are trying to run before you can walk. Arc-welding metal of that thickness (2mm) is quite difficult, and for structural work, which is what you are doing, needs a steady and experienced hand.

As the others have said, get someone to guide you for a few hours, you will learn much quicker that way. If you have no one to help you, obtain thicker metal and just run beads along it to start with, so that you learn good control of the torch.

Always start near the top of the advised machine settings, and adjust downwards, if you are not experienced in arc welding. So if the advised setting range is 60 - 90Amps, start around 80-85.

Also make sure your metal is very clean. The metal in your pictures appears to have a coating? This must be cleaned off thoroughly, especially if it is a galvanised finish. Otherwise the welds will roll up into little balls and lie on top, rather like in your pictures.

When you feel more confident running beads, start to make butt joints on 3 or 4 mm metal first, which will be much easier than the 2 mm you are using.

Only when you can make joints that can be hammered hard and do not break, is it time to move down to the 2 mm thin metal, and go through the learning process again.
Thin metal is not easy to learn with, even with mig welding. Arc welding is rather more difficult. You will get there, but slow down, and learn properly first.

 

[Wendelspanswick]

I'd say you were moving the rod way to fast, slow it down and weave the rod from side to side slowly as you move it along. If you blow a hole drop the amps a bit or drop down to 1.6mm rods and lower amps.

 

[Welderpaul]

As others have said, it looks like your travel speed is far too fast. I'd be at around 90 amps with a 2.5 rod, the scale on box section is minimal and won't cause any problems with the weld, but is good practice to grind it clean first.
Watch the weld pool form and ensure it fuses with each side as you move. Steady your 'rod' hand with your other hand and keep the end of the rod centred on the bevel between the two pieces (A ready made prep in effect).
Practice on some offcuts first and get used to the methods and results.
Have a good read of the resources that are on this forum.

Then cut apart everything you have done and start again.
Watch for the bend when making trusses like that, welding the whole thing up on one side will cause it to pull up on itself. You need to equalise the tacks/welds as you go to keep the thing straight. I'd tack it all up first which will let you tweak it if its not quite straight rather than weld everything then spend days trying to batter it straight.

Let us know how you get on.

 

[tombardier]

Hi. you can grind all of that off and go back to it later! maintain a really tight arc with 6013. try resting the rod and dragging it at an angle which should help as you practice. keep to the leading edge of your weld pool as you travel. just some things you might want to do as you -practice-! (on scrap)

 

[slimjim]

I kind of suspect by the welds, that not only your traveling to fast, but your struggling with an unsteady hand, maybe you should practice the weld first without the machine switched on or the mask on, to ensure you can move the rod along the metal without wavering to much, just a thought

 

[greek]

first of all change the leads + goes to ellectrode go to about 80 a as a start get some scrap (i can see it in your photos)put gloves,long shirt,mask & get comfrtable with the sparks watch where the pudle of the molten metal is it is not easy to see it in the slug, its the first time, the ellectrode should be no more that 30 from vertical and you should drag it towards you if you find out that you blow holes try to cound weld 1234 pause break the slug weld again 1234.... you shoul also go to read this http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/learning-arc.htm you better be late for 1-2 days than get the roof on your head.if you find someone to teach you things will go faster. good luck

 

[StickNtig]

Either learn from a professional or let someone else do it

 

[PTvor]

I guess I wasnt born to be a welder. Awful first 2 days attempts.... HELP please

To be honest I think you are expecting far too much of yourself if this is your first two days of welding, especially on thin material like this. These are not bad for first attempts even if they won't do for structural welding.

You need to practice on scrap and experiment a lot before attempting such a serious job.

If you've got to get that roof up, pay someone else to do it if you can and maybe they'll give you some tips.

 

[Drains]

As you may be realising Ali, there is more to welding than you thought. Good welding is an acquired skill and takes practice.
You made the right move coming here for advice though, and mine is...

1) learn what is a good weld and what is not. That way you can inspect your own work and decide if you have to get out the grinder and start again, or find a man to do it for you.
2) learn how to adjust the Amps in order to get a good weld. It's very important, so just guessing at 70amps, as you did, wont work. Paul's advice was good, but he works at the high current end because he can. You may need 85a, but it depends on position and technique amongst other things. You'll have to decide yourself.
3) as advised above, learn to watch the weldpool and make sure the filler (not just the slag) is joining both pieces. This is often a low current issue.
4) get your travel speed right
5) practice. I wouldn't even be trying to join metal yet if I were you. Waste a few rods (like, a box of them), spending a few hours laying a pad weld, that is, get a piece of plate 150mm square or so and cover it in weld beads side by side, each tight up to the next so you build up a full layer of weld. Turn it 90 degrees and do it again. This way you'll learn to weld in a straight line, learn to identify simple faults and have time to remedy them. Once you can do this simple stuff, cut some pieces of box and join them together. When you've worked out how to do that properly, it might be time to make your roof beams.

As Paul said, watch for the beams bending. A tip- if you weld across a piece of box it will bend. If you weld along it, it will bend less. See your beams? Where you have one pice of box joined to another, I would only weld tho two faces in line with the long edge and leave the two going across the box. There will be no problems with strength and there will be far less distortion.

 

[octo0072000]

mask

i noticed in the pictures no welding mask
what are you using
a decent auto darking helmet/mask will work a lot better learning to weld
than a hand held one
not sure can you get you tube in turkye try these lots more on the tube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78EnhHf-Agw&feature=related

 

[Ali The Farmer]

As you may be realising Ali, there is more to welding than you thought. Good welding is an acquired skill and takes practice.
You made the right move coming here for advice though, and mine is...

1) learn what is a good weld and what is not. That way you can inspect your own work and decide if you have to get out the grinder and start again, or find a man to do it for you.
2) learn how to adjust the Amps in order to get a good weld. It's very important, so just guessing at 70amps, as you did, wont work. Paul's advice was good, but he works at the high current end because he can. You may need 85a, but it depends on position and technique amongst other things. You'll have to decide yourself.
3) as advised above, learn to watch the weldpool and make sure the filler (not just the slag) is joining both pieces. This is often a low current issue.
4) get your travel speed right
5) practice. I wouldn't even be trying to join metal yet if I were you. Waste a few rods (like, a box of them), spending a few hours laying a pad weld, that is, get a piece of plate 150mm square or so and cover it in weld beads side by side, each tight up to the next so you build up a full layer of weld. Turn it 90 degrees and do it again. This way you'll learn to weld in a straight line, learn to identify simple faults and have time to remedy them. Once you can do this simple stuff, cut some pieces of box and join them together. When you've worked out how to do that properly, it might be time to make your roof beams.

As Paul said, watch for the beams bending. A tip- if you weld across a piece of box it will bend. If you weld along it, it will bend less. See your beams? Where you have one pice of box joined to another, I would only weld tho two faces in line with the long edge and leave the two going across the box. There will be no problems with strength and there will be far less distortion.

Thanks for all the great detail in your advice, much appreciated. Regarding the last tip, does that apply to both the vertical rectangular sections AND the diagonal box sections? So that way, there are no welds across the narrow section on the rectangular box profile, only along the long edge - did I understand that correctly?

 

[Ali The Farmer]

Thanks to everyone who responded - here's my thoughts

What a good forum. As an obvious non-professional, I'm impressed with the replies, particularly in trying to help out rather than just saying 'go to a pro'. Good videos too, thanks.

Taken it all in, and plan to get some practice time next week after ploughing and other farm jobs done. I've put a few responses below to specifics raised so far. Many thanks to all who responded to my cry for help.

Wheelchairwelder //
I did some simple arc stuff some 25 yrs ago in NZ, but nothing since (as is plainly obvious)

Wheelchairwelder // octo0072000 // chunkolini // keith19 // Greek // Stickntig //
Not easy to get guidance here in rural Turkey. The ‘professionals’ here are mostly unqualified cash only, non tax paying types and having seen the work of 3 guys in the past 5 yrs, I know I can do as well with practice. The local ‘professionals’ use sunglasses for a mask, or hold a broken piece of darkened glass from a mask, or the most common here, holding your hand in front of your eyes with partially opened fingers!! Trouble is they will take a job on for more cash than I make as a fruit farmer, but are VERY reticent about 'helping me to learn' as it’s a bad job market out there and are notoriously closed-shop.

Wheelchairwelder //
I cant locate E6011 rods so far, but will try again this week. The problem I was seeing does sound familiar to what you described.

octo0072000 //
Found a thicker 15amp ext lead, previous was 10amp. Guess that was important.

octo0072000 // keith19 // Welderpaul // Greek // Drains //
I will try next time uping to 80-85amps . Originally I found this to cause excessive spatter, but I think that was more down to a long arc length in hindsight.

Keith19 //
The 2mm thickness does pose a problem, but that is all anyone uses here. The overall roof is 6-7m wide by 7m deep, with a need for 2 cross beams supporting a lattice frame of 40mm x 40mm on which the galvanized sheets lay (done this on other outbuildings ok, but none requiring cross beam supports as they were much smaller). The good news is that I have been able to use a single 6m length of 100mm x 100mm x 2.5mm for one of the beams, with just the 1 beam of 6.7m requiring me to construct the beast you see in my pictures.

Keith19 // Welderpaul // Tombardier // Slimjim // Greek // Drains // PTvor //
I have some old but now clean 5mm thick 90 degree angle steel which I can practice away on this week. I think the ‘steady hand’ is the key to my problems, mostly working one handed, and not appreciating the significance if angle, speed, arc length etc. The roof is not mega urgent, as I have probably a month to six weeks to get it completed.

Keith 19 //
Tried galvanized a few times and know how hard that stuff is, even after grinding off the zinc. These lengths are clean, but they appear blackened, and leave your hands all black and dusty when handled. Will try and clean sections first and see how that affects the results.

Wendelspanswick // Welderpaul // Slimjim //
Slow down, yep, got that one. Having watched the videos on this site I have a better idea. 1.6mm rods, might try that. Do you think the 2.5mm E6013 rods are too heavy for the 2mm I’m attempting to weld?

Welderpaul // Tombardier // Greek //
I find it hard to distinguish between the weld pool and what turns out to be mostly slag.

Welderpaul //
There is a slight bend, but caught early enough, but thanks, good point.

Greek //
The rig shows the electrode should be connected to the NEG rather than POS. Is this something I should change, and if so, why? I’d be interested to know.

octo0072000 //
I have a hand held mask, but find it very difficult to see the weld site and then I find I’m not in the same position once I move the mask into position, so now I use goggles. No masks like you mentioned available around here. To be honest, the local ‘professionals’ use sunglasses, or holding a broken piece of darkened glass from a mask, or the most common here, holding your hand in front of your eyes with partially opened fingers!! And we can now get YouTube here It was banned for ages (as are some 20,000 sites) but I will certainly have a look.

 

[PTvor]

Rod negative/ rod positive. Rod negative is reckoned to give a quieter arc and less penetration and be easier for thin stuff, 2mm and less. But try it. There are threads on here about rod negative and rod positive. Use the search function.

Most welding sets come with a little hand held mask that isn't very strong. You can get better ones here in the UK for about £10 and up. Some experienced welders prefer them.

There are flip-up type headshields which leave both hands free - £10 to £30.

There are autodarkening headshields, £25 to £hundreds. A lot of people on here have the cheap ones and get on with them. There are cheap ones on ebay, if that's available in Turkey. Automatic headshields make life far easier. Apart from with the very cheapeast the shade is adjustable to suit what you are doing.

If you use goggles, I assume gas goggles, you could get arc eye, they are probably too light a shade to see the weld forming properly and you will get very bad sunburn on your face.

As for looking through your fingers, you only come into this world issued with one pair of eyes.

Surely there must be welding suppliers in Turkey, or somewhere you can buy something safe and useable, even if it has to be imported.

1.6mm rods are not easy to find, at least in the UK, and tend to be expensive compared with other sizes. They have a different action. You might try 2mm rods.

As for the right current, the dials on welders are only accurate to maybe +/-5% and the range on the packet is only a guide. It will also depend on the thickness of the metal and the position you are welding in. If you can turn the work so you are always welding on the flat, it's easier to get a good weld, even if you've learned to do vertical and overhead welding. Inverters (DC) don't seen to need quite as much current as AC machines with the same rod.

Experienced welders can turn up the current and adjust their technique.You have to try the rods and see how they work with your welder.

 

[rich r]

I've got a load of cheap 1.6mm rods, but my welder won't go below 55 Amps so they're no use to me. Unfortunately posting them to Turkey would probably cost way more than you could get them more locally. I reckon you should be fine with 2.0mm or 2.5mm if you can keep the arc nice and short. That's something that's taking me a lot of practise to do with the thinner rods, as they burn back so quickly!

I've only been welding a couple of weeks, but once I bought an auto darkening mask, my technique has improved massively. Having two hands means you can steady the rod and stop the arc getting too long, and having a mask that you can see through until the arc actually strikes means you start welds in the right place. With a decent mask, you can see a difference in colour between the arc, the weld pool the hot slag and the cooling slag. It's not huge, but it's a lot easier to see where the rod needs to be.

I'm sure some of the suppliers on eBay will happily post to Turkey, so you should be able to get a mask for under £50 including postage.

 

[brepei]

Make sure that your not in an area that is exposed to moving air or windy conditions. When you practice weld, watch your puddle, with practice you can see the slag from the welding rod coverage coating, forming behind your puddle. Don't weld over slag,chip it off to get to the metal part of the bead and start anew. As the others have advised grind off the Galvanized (Zinc mostly) coating, because this will contaminate your weld.Also take precautions not to breath the fumes from the galvanized areas that you may weld. Good luck,keep practicing it takes time to learn. Relax and get as comfortable as your welding envirement permits and as the others have recomended,try to steady your welding hand with your other hand. Regards, Brepei

 

[Bsmith]

so now I use goggles. No masks like you mentioned available around here. To be honest, the local ‘professionals’ use sunglasses, or holding a broken piece of darkened glass from a mask, or the most common here, holding your hand in front of your eyes with partially opened fingers!!

Whew!! Don't even start again if that's the best you have, the whole job is not worth the price you will pay either with arc-eye or UV burn.

I bought an auto dark helmet once off eBay and had it sent direct from America just because it was a lot cheaper than buying in this country back then.