milling machine quill/spindle adjustment

[tombardier]

Greetings all. Thought I would look to your collective knowledge to figure out how best to adjust my quill. Pictured is my new fritz werner 5.160ws milling machine. Brilliant thing, built to last for sure. It's older than my father! I wanted to remove the collet holder and with the lack of a manual or any experience I undid the castellated locking nuts you see pictured, before realising I just had to undo the collet holder drawbar a touch and whack it with my copper mallet to remove it! In any case, I removed the the locking nuts you see at the bottom of the spindle/quill on the vertical head as well as the horizontal. The middle one has an internal thread and the outside ring has an external thread. From what I can gather, I need to do up the internal nut, leaving some play, and then lock it in place with the external nut, but I'm not sure how to get the correct adjustment. I've removed all discernible play, and it still turns easily, but I'd love to know how to adjust it correctly. I'm also not sure whether it's the bearing preload that I'm setting with these nuts or something else. I hope someone understands what I'm on about. . As I said, I'm inexperienced and this is my first mill. Absolutely love the thing though. Learning a lot about it as I go

Thanks. Tom.

 

[Pete.]

Those nuts look like they set the spindle bearing pre-load. Quite important to get them right so it's worth taking some time over. You're supposed to use two c-spanners to lock them together after setting the correct load on the bearing.

Having no info on how to go about that setting I would use the following method: Put a collet in the spindle with some bar in it and set a dial gauge against the side of the spindle. loosen off the locking nut, back out the inner nut then tighten it until the deflection you see on the gauge does not change with further tightening. In other words, you'll always see a tiny bit of movement from pushing and pulling on the bar but there will be a definite point where that movement changes from registering 'slack' to reading 'flex'.
Run the spindle afterwards and make sure it doesn't get hot or put out excessive noise. Hand-warm from running at high speed is usually fine.

 

[tombardier]

Thanks Pete, that's brilliant and it reinforces what I already suspected! It looks like I managed to do a pretty good job yesterday. I got it to about a thou of deflection and tightening it further didn't really improve on that and also made it feel tighter which obviously isn't good. I did have a problem before with the machine starting up badly on higher rpms, turning very slowly until it had warmed up, so I think setting this preload correctly might help with that. I'll try in a bit. I've limited myself to about 1200 rpm as any higher than that and I'd get the problem which would go away if I disengaged the vertical spindle. I wish there was a manual available. I've been looking at a compound of manuals for other machines of the same era and pretty much most things seem to be relevant so that's good it cuts well with no chatter etc. I've spent a lot of time degreasing the table and blowing out the zerk channels and oiling with new way oil, so I'm looking at having a tip top machine really. Paint job next!

Thought I'd attach another couple of piccies

Thanks again. Tom.

 

[AdamH]

Hi Tombardier,
I wondered what you thought about this milling machine for a home workshop. I am comparing it to a Tom Senior M1 (I used to think this was the best home package for size and performance) which has much greater table holding capacity under the quill which is useful for using something like a 5" centre height dividing head - I think use of such would be difficult with your Fritz Werner? Also the TS has greater table travel range , but only operates under power in one direction unlike the FW. You may not be familiar with the Tom Senior, but do you have any comments on the use of your FW? What are the nice compensations for having such a small table to quill gap?

 

[ukracer]

I'm inexperienced and this is my first mill. Absolutely love the thing though. Learning a lot about it as I go

Thanks. Tom.

How much did it set you back??

 

[tombardier]

Hi AdamH. I wouldn't say there are any compensations with having a small table to quill gap, unless you count that it's _probably_ inherently more rigid! I have found the height to be an issue, and so I like to use finger collets for mill-holding to get a bit more room sometimes, rather than the Osborne titanic milling chuck I've got - which is excellent in other respects. I couldn't use it for drilling, and I had bought it thinking I could use it as a pillar drill, but I bought a decent pillar drill separately in the end, so that's fine.

Another problem is that it only has one t-slot running down the length of the table, and the table x-axis travel is very small too, so only half of the table is really usable for going across x! I don't really have room to do anything useful with my rotary table either (because it's very large, not suited to the machine really)

I still haven't made myself an outboard bearing arm for the horizontal side yet. I'm converting it to use a 3-phase 4hp motor this week. I've found that the machine doesn't like starting from cold on higher speeds with the current 2hp single-phase motor. That could be to do with the thick gloopy gl4 ep90 oil I've got in the gearbox!

Having to use the change wheels to change speeds main speeds and table feed speeds is a bit of a pain. At least with my new motor I'll have some speed control without needing to use the gears!

ukracer: I paid £150 for it, and that was a serious bargain as I'm sure you'll agree, because despite the paint job and look of the thing, it's in really very good nick! I've seen one advertised for sale today for £800, and I saw another one on ebay a little while ago go for a similar price.

http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/classifieds/view_ad.asp?ad=10928

In summary, yes, it does have its limitations, but I think it's a brilliant machine. twice my age, and still fighting fit!

 

[penfold]

The gearbox should probably have sae 30 or maybe 40 in it; not many machine tools specify extreme pressure oil because their gearboxes do not create the conditions that need that kind of lubrication.

 

[ukracer]

ukracer: I paid £150 for it, and that was a serious bargain as I'm sure you'll agree,

Sure is why do i not find anything that price round here. lol Bonus is I have just moved my RAGLAN 5 INCH and found all its tooling and change wheels out. So That should soon be sold. If I can keep my wifes mucky maulers of it for long enough, I might just get one myself soon.

 

[DanielW]

https://store.lathes.co.uk/werner

 

[tombardier]

https://store.lathes.co.uk/werner

Blimey. If it wasn't £110 I might have had a punt on the manual for the 5.131 - which sounds close to 5.160.. but that price is astonishing!!

 

[hareng]

Tom you need a spindle lock or something to stop spindle rotating whilst tightening the nut.
Had a quick look cant see whether spindles an ISO, R8 or MT3. Whats loose cant see whether Clarkson or ER style, hate em both. Always on three ER types had cutters drop and only one Chinese made.

 

[tombardier]

it's OK, the spindle doesn't rotate when you're tightening it up. I could really do with two c-spanners for it, but I managed to remove all slop and it's been fine for months now!

It's MT2, although I saw another 5.160ws for sale recently, and that looked to have an Int. 30/40 type taper.

The cutter holder is Osborne Titanic, and it does a pretty good job. They take the same threaded cutters as Clarkson ones, and it's not really the collet gripping that keeps the cutter secure, but the fact that the thread is wound all the way up so that the end of the cutter seats against a pin at the top, and the cutting force keeps it nice and secure. It's no use for holding plain shanked cutters, but it really is good for threaded ones!

Cheers. Tom

 

[Paul Kirby]

Hi Tomberdier
Interested in your experience with the Fritz Werrner I have the same model with X axis shake
I can lock the Y and Z axis but how do you lock the X?
Appreciate any advice you might have.
Thanks Paul

 

[addjunkie]

That is a nice size machine , and at that money a real snip.

The table looks to have 3 slots not 1, or are they coolant drain paths.

I find small rotary tables a waste of time, by the time you use clamps etc. if you want to get more use sacrifice a bit of height and make a mounting plate, bit of flat say 1/2 thick should do you and move the rotsry table across.

Huge part of milling skill is knowing the sequence and how to set up for machining, not the actual cutting. The old addage measure twice cut once is ******** for millling, more like measure 10 times, put a pen in the collet and try it, measure again, then maybe cut or rethink the job and measure again.

 

[tombardier]

There is no way to lock x which is a bummer! just make sure not to climb mill and set things up so that the cuts never pull the work along the x axis. The cut I was doing was quite meaty with a big massive blunt cutter. I've considered just tightening the x axis taper gib, but haven't done so yet

 

[tombardier]

Addjunkie, yes, there's only one t slot in the middle I figured out my rotary table fits much more nicely mounted diagonally. I'm much better work my lathe than the mill. I'm definitely still lacking skills in tau respect. Been spending too much time restoring my rangey. I'll be getting back to engineering once that's on the road in the next week or so btw paul kirby. I don't mention my milling table shake in the forum but I'm guessing you've seen my youtube video as there are limited results when googling fritz werner!

 

[Paul Kirby]

Yes thanks for the confirmation Tom, I did spot your youtube clip. I have had the miller getting on for 10 years it is beautifully built and a lovely machine to use. As always, sometimes wish it had more headroom and table travel. I had to replace one of the primary drive bearings in the column when I first got it but other than that it functions well and is very rigid. Locking the X axis would be very helpful particularly when milling a slot on the Y axis when the chatter is difficult to eliminate even with sharp tooling. Generally try to get round that set up but sometimes just have to put up with it.
I have never tried using the the suds pump which on my machine looks a bit ropey but do not generally need that level of coolant. I have searched in vain for a manual with no joy I assume you are in the same position? Regards Paul

 

[tombardier]

I've never found a manual. someone did allude to having a sketchy photocopy once on homeworkshop.org.uk I think. I contacted them and got no reply. I still haven't wired my three phase motor in yet. That'll make the machine much more practical for me as it's a real pain getting behind it to change gears!

 

[Paul Kirby]

Mine is running on what looks like its original 3 phase motor, large and heavy. I can alter speed with the inverter but it will not run on lower speeds and I'm loathe to rosk overheating the motor by running it at the wrong speed so tend to just change the gears. Have you had the table off when you cleaned up yours, if so do you have any tips on this as it is my next job. I assumed all of this model were Int 30 which mine is. Bit of a nuisance as I now have lathes MT2 and MT3 Mill drill R8 and miller Int30. S/H tooling is not too difficult to find fortunately. If you need any pictures / dimensions for the overarm bearing let me know as my machine has this.
Regards Paul

 

[tombardier]

I have had the table off yes. taking the x-axis table off is pretty much self-explanatory on mine, as I haven't got the fast traversal handle poking out the front and the worm gear is missing too. There's also nothing attached to the leadscrew on the far end. To remove the y-axis table was just a case of a couple of nuts on the bottom holding the cover under the right side of the table, and a couple of screws holding the leadscrew nut carrier on the bottom of the table and I think the drive shaft with the universal joint just slides out without undoing anything. I've never taken the knee table off.

My Boxford CUD is MT2 tailstock so it's quite nice that the mill is MT2 as well, although in practice, I don't really have anything I can practically share between the two! (and my headstock on the lathe is MT3 anyway)

Once I've got my range rover on the road, perhaps my horizontal bearing arm would be a nice winter project!

Cheers. Tom.