Open fire, back boiler.

[wristpin]

House was “ all electric” Open fireplace in sitting room that was connected to the hot water cylinder. Yonks ago oil fired boiler installed with wet radiators . Back boiler disconnected and fire place unused. . Is it ok to light a fire ? Someone said that the back boiler should be packed with sand. Easier said than done I suspect.

 

[Barking Mat]

I've heard that.

Many years ago I started pouring fine sand into the back box on our Rayburn, then I thought, if I do want to use it in the future, how the hell will I get it out ?

So I stopped.

Its never been an issue.

I can see it could be an issue, firebricks in it ? Mild steel or cast iron ?

 

[gaz1]

personally id reuse it if you can do

but if theres any water in that boiler and you use it expect a good amount of steam coming from those pipes

normally they are taken out

Risks from redundant solid fuel back boilers

HSE is issuing this safety alert for the attention of individual homeowners, tenants, landlords and the plumbing/heating industry. This is to raise awareness of the potential dangers of lighting a solid fuel fire when a redundant solid fuel back boiler has been left within the fireplace.

www.hse.gov.uk

 

[OJCar]

Unsafe, get the back boiler removed and a proper fire place or stove put in.
HSE Warning on back boilers

 

[Barking Mat]

Fair point, my pipes weren't sealed off.

Check that @wristpin

 

[OJCar]

Or , recommission the back boiler using something like a Dunsley Neutralizer to link it in with the oil boiler.

 

[reb78]

I thought Dunsleys were outlawed ten times over these days? Mums run one for over 30 years and its done its job perfectly with three heat sources linked - gas boiler, rayburn and back boiler (originally on an open coal fire, now on a woodburner in the hearth on the other side of the wall to the open fire - just redirected the pipework)

 

[OJCar]

^ Dunsley Neutalizers are still in their current price list.

http://dunsleyheat.co.uk/pricelist.pdf

 

[reb78]

^^ oh, i'm not disputing it. My experience of them has been very positive. Talk to any plumber about them these days and there seems to be a lot of tutting and teeth sucking...

 

[gaz1]

^^ oh, i'm not disputing it. My experience of them has been very positive. Talk to any plumber about them these days and there seems to be a lot of tutting and teeth sucking...

only because they are dumb and dont understand them there commision comes from fitting new boilers not fitting old systems that work for years and have hardly any problems to them

but to give you a good idea on old fireback boilers

https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/using-an-open-fire-efficiently.95798/#post-1433160

https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/anyone-know-anything-about-1930s-fire-places.84756/#post-1212495

 

[OJCar]

^^ oh, i'm not disputing it. My experience of them has been very positive. Talk to any plumber about them these days and there seems to be a lot of tutting and teeth sucking...

Getting quite a few plumbers to even answer their phone is quite an achievement,
often they just want the easiest. quickest , best profit jobs.

When you find a good plumber hang onto them.

 

[minimutly]

Unsafe, get the back boiler removed and a proper fire place or stove put in.
HSE Warning on back boilers

Unsafe “if allowed to pressurise”
Just vent the pipes in the loft space and it will be fine.

 

[OJCar]

^ Unsafe.

"In tests carried out in 2002 it was found that the top and sides of a solid fuel back boiler, without circulating water, reached temperatures in excess of 700°C. Within 2 hours the temperature in some areas had reached around 480°C. This compared with normal system maximum operating temperatures of 124°C.

Industry recommended action to control the risk​

Previous advice recommended that a redundant back boiler left in situ must be in a condition such that an unsafe level of pressure cannot build up in the unit. Thus, at the decommissioning stage the system should have been drained and redundant pipework removed along with, ideally, the back boiler itself. If not removed the boiler should have been left in a 'vented' or 'open' condition. If the pipe connections were plugged, at least one 6mm diameter hole should have been drilled in the water jacket, preferably in a vertical or near vertical face.

In some cases the decommissioning may have been carried out by an individual, or heating or building organisations that were unaware of the potential problem, or had not seen the advice.

Other longer term potential dangers can arise with continued use of a fireplace and redundant back boiler even if appropriately vented:

1. If connected pipework is left in situ, corrosion/cracking of the water jacket sidewalls may allow flue gases to enter the pipework and be conveyed to other areas of the property with potentially dangerous consequences. The high temperature of the pipework may also present a fire risk.
2. Continued use of an open fire has potential for structural damage through repeated expansion and contraction of the boiler casing, which is significant due to the high temperatures involved.

Additional note: the flue of a retro-fitted gas fire must not pass through the redundant water jacket.​

HETAS, the independent UK body recognised by DEFRA for the official testing and approval of domestic solid fuels and solid fuel burning appliances, advises:

The only positively safe and reliable way to proceed, when a solid fuel back boiler is no longer needed and the customer wants to continue using the fireplace, is to totally remove the back boiler installation by breaking up the chamber that used to carry the hot water system and removing any pipe work. When an open fire is left in use (or could be brought back into use) a replacement Milner fire back needs to be installed to ensure that the fire can be safely used.


Similarly, a "wet" solid fuel room heater or stove with boiler should not be operated after the water supply to the boiler has been disconnected. These appliances are not designed to be used without water circulation and there could be serious safety issues if they are misused."

 

[minimutly]

^ Unsafe.

"In tests carried out in 2002 it was found that the top and sides of a solid fuel back boiler, without circulating water, reached temperatures in excess of 700°C. Within 2 hours the temperature in some areas had reached around 480°C. This compared with normal system maximum operating temperatures of 124°C.

Industry recommended action to control the risk​

Previous advice recommended that a redundant back boiler left in situ must be in a condition such that an unsafe level of pressure cannot build up in the unit. Thus, at the decommissioning stage the system should have been drained and redundant pipework removed along with, ideally, the back boiler itself. If not removed the boiler should have been left in a 'vented' or 'open' condition. If the pipe connections were plugged, at least one 6mm diameter hole should have been drilled in the water jacket, preferably in a vertical or near vertical face.

In some cases the decommissioning may have been carried out by an individual, or heating or building organisations that were unaware of the potential problem, or had not seen the advice.

Other longer term potential dangers can arise with continued use of a fireplace and redundant back boiler even if appropriately vented:

1. If connected pipework is left in situ, corrosion/cracking of the water jacket sidewalls may allow flue gases to enter the pipework and be conveyed to other areas of the property with potentially dangerous consequences. The high temperature of the pipework may also present a fire risk.
2. Continued use of an open fire has potential for structural damage through repeated expansion and contraction of the boiler casing, which is significant due to the high temperatures involved.

Additional note: the flue of a retro-fitted gas fire must not pass through the redundant water jacket.​

HETAS, the independent UK body recognised by DEFRA for the official testing and approval of domestic solid fuels and solid fuel burning appliances, advises:

The only positively safe and reliable way to proceed, when a solid fuel back boiler is no longer needed and the customer wants to continue using the fireplace, is to totally remove the back boiler installation by breaking up the chamber that used to carry the hot water system and removing any pipe work. When an open fire is left in use (or could be brought back into use) a replacement Milner fire back needs to be installed to ensure that the fire can be safely used.


Similarly, a "wet" solid fuel room heater or stove with boiler should not be operated after the water supply to the boiler has been disconnected. These appliances are not designed to be used without water circulation and there could be serious safety issues if they are misused."

If I was a plumber advising a client I agree with the above. If it was my fire I would use it, and keep an eye on the copper bit. Horses for courses, but I take your point.