Powering Britain

[Gragson]

Just watched powering Britain episode 1. Off shore wind.
Could have been really interesting & informative, but spoilt by low brow presenting and just too much presenting. Would have been much better with just narrating rather than giving some "wow look at that" kid a jolly. Shame as there are another 4-5 episodes which will all be the same missed opportunity I fear.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000lxnz/powering-britain-series-1-wind

 

[Cobbler]

I agree with you, I watched it & thought it could have been made a lot more interesting. I found it rather dull & I’m not sure why, the subject was right.

 

[Gragson]

Yes, the subject was right, and given the access they had to pretty staggering stuff, it should have been fascinating.
If it was a bit more in depth with technology etc could have been better, if you don't get some of it you could look it up and learn more, it was just too spoon fed.
Think one of the problems is dumbing stuff down thinking it will appeal to more.

 

[addjunkie]

Yes, the subject was right, and given the access they had to pretty staggering stuff, it should have been fascinating.
If it was a bit more in depth with technology etc could have been better, if you don't get some of it you could look it up and learn more, it was just too spoon fed.
Think one of the problems is dumbing stuff down thinking it will appeal to more.

I agree rather dumbed down. Shame as I find stuff like that worth watching. Boat transfers by hydraulic gangways may have improved with heave control and better dynamic positioning, but it aint anything new, used to do it 30 years ago from the Iolair in the Forties field.

 

[mechman]

I agree rather dumbed down. Shame as I find stuff like that worth watching. Boat transfers by hydraulic gangways may have improved with heave control and better dynamic positioning, but it aint anything new, used to do it 30 years ago from the Iolair in the Forties field.

Slightly off topic, must have missed you, I also was on the Iolair +Coltair+ Seagair, early eighties. hope I haven't hijacked the thread.

 

[piman]

Hell all,

My critisism of this programme and the media in general when they cover wind power is that they give a glossy view of what is a pretty ineffective technology. They always quote nameplate capacity when the reality is that they average about 40% of that (25% for onshore) or the totally meaningless x number of homes. Then there is the statement about how cheap they are which is completely false once all costs are factored in. The consumer pays dearly for them, in the U.K. and any other country that has installed a lot of wind.
Technically they are not suited for large scale grid supply as they are asynchronous, (cannot support frequency) and have no inertia much like an engine's flywheel which stabilises frequency. This is apart from their intermittence and a cube law output to wind speed which gives an amplified varying output in blustery conditions, i.e. upsetting stability. For a stable and reliable grid frequency is controlled very tightly, any deviation of + or - 0.2 percent of a Hz is considered an event by the National Grid.

The presenter seemed impressed by 7Mwatt size which is tiny in grid generators scale, and that they deteriorate as soon as commissioned and output slowly drops as the blades erode. Factor in the 40% and an average of about 3Mwatts is what you get. (I did see a recent report that claimed 60% but a 50% improvement in a few short years seems totally implausible.)

I really do not understand why wind has become so widespread given it's know weaknesses; politicians and advisors with little technical knowledge, a strong wind lobby from manufacturers and the green blob?

Alec

 

[mtt.tr]

I hate the its the size of x amount of football fields, just give me the numbers that's all


No great surprise the average iq is dropping

 

[badabec]

I hate the its the size of x amount of football fields, just give me the numbers that's all

I don't mind if it is to within 'a fanny's hair'. Apologies to Doubleboost

 

[mtt.tr]

I don't mind if it is to within 'a fanny's hair'. Apologies to Doubleboost

Or a gnats cock

Those i don't mind as they are humorous.

Or rough as a badgers ****

 

[fizzy]

Hell all,

My critisism of this programme and the media in general when they cover wind power is that they give a glossy view of what is a pretty ineffective technology. They always quote nameplate capacity when the reality is that they average about 40% of that (25% for onshore) or the totally meaningless x number of homes. Then there is the statement about how cheap they are which is completely false once all costs are factored in. The consumer pays dearly for them, in the U.K. and any other country that has installed a lot of wind.
Technically they are not suited for large scale grid supply as they are asynchronous, (cannot support frequency) and have no inertia much like an engine's flywheel which stabilises frequency. This is apart from their intermittence and a cube law output to wind speed which gives an amplified varying output in blustery conditions, i.e. upsetting stability. For a stable and reliable grid frequency is controlled very tightly, any deviation of + or - 0.2 percent of a Hz is considered an event by the National Grid.

The presenter seemed impressed by 7Mwatt size which is tiny in grid generators scale, and that they deteriorate as soon as commissioned and output slowly drops as the blades erode. Factor in the 40% and an average of about 3Mwatts is what you get. (I did see a recent report that claimed 60% but a 50% improvement in a few short years seems totally implausible.)

I really do not understand why wind has become so widespread given it's know weaknesses; politicians and advisors with little technical knowledge, a strong wind lobby from manufacturers and the green blob?

Alec

I am not a fan either. Although offshore makes far more sense than onshore.
Even worse are all the damn solar farms in the UK.
I have just come back from Spain and Portugal. Even in October 30C and the sun is so intense. And yet hardly a solar farm to be seen. I get back to the UK and on my drive back from Portsmouth I see maybe 20 solar farms - whilst the traffic is down to 40mph due to torrential rain and dark skies. You couldn't make it up

 

[TechnicAl]

I can never feel comfortable with gas powered electricity generating power stations......I was involved with a few.....just converting one fuel to another cant be very efficient.

 

[Gragson]

I have just come back from Spain and Portugal. Even in October 30C and the sun is so intense. And yet hardly a solar farm to be seen.

They do have some pretty impressive ones PS10 & 20 in Seville - whether it makes sense or not...no idea

 

[fizzy]

I can never feel comfortable with gas powered electricity generating power stations......I was involved with a few.....just converting one fuel to another cant be very efficient.

I thought gas power stations were very efficient - especially those using heat recovery.
They are also cheap to build.
The one near Swansea cost £300 million to build compared to over £4 billion for an offshore windfarm with the same generating capacity!

 

[piman]

Hello Fizzy,

yes you are right Combined Cycle Gas Turbine generators are around 60% efficient, as they use waste heat to create steam to run steam turbines. They are not quite as flexible as open cycle gas turbines which can start and be online in minutes and likewise can shut down in minutes.

The other thing about gas is that they emit less CO2 per Mwatt than coal. The downside is that in winter there is a large demand for gas for heating and with the government forcing coal generating plants to shut down in the next few short years, we will be totally reliant on gas to keep the grid powered. all our fuel eggs in one basket. It's foolhardy in my opinion.

Alec

 

[fizzy]

Hello Fizzy,

yes you are right Combined Cycle Gas Turbine generators are around 60% efficient, as they use waste heat to create steam to run steam turbines. They are not quite as flexible as open cycle gas turbines which can start and be online in minutes and likewise can shut down in minutes.

The other thing about gas is that they emit less CO2 per Mwatt than coal. The downside is that in winter there is a large demand for gas for heating and with the government forcing coal generating plants to shut down in the next few short years, we will be totally reliant on gas to keep the grid powered. all our fuel eggs in one basket. It's foolhardy in my opinion.

Alec

Couldn't agree more but the sensible option is denied us sadly.
Never mind I am sure our solar will keep us going over Christmas

 

[fizzy]

They do have some pretty impressive ones PS10 & 20 in Seville - whether it makes sense or not...no idea

View attachment 257254

They are building a big PV solar farm not far from my Dads place near Lagos - Portugal.
It is one of the few that makes sense.
The sun is intense - similar to North Africa.
The ground is scrub - too dry and arid for anything to grow.
I actually approve - BUT the reason they aren't popular out there is once again no way of storing the power. People want more energy early morning and late evening. That is why nearly every house does have solar hot water. You can have your bath or shower early morning or evening when the sun isn't shining.
Another potential for solar PV in Portugal would be to directly power desalination plants. They are in permanent drought now. Desalination plants are very power hungry so short cable run solar would make sense.

 

[Morrisman]

Just watched powering Britain episode 1. Off shore wind.
Could have been really interesting & informative, but spoilt by low brow presenting and just too much presenting. Would have been much better with just narrating rather than giving some "wow look at that" kid a jolly. Shame as there are another 4-5 episodes which will all be the same missed opportunity I fear.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000lxnz/powering-britain-series-1-wind

Dumbing down the masses, with “...and that’s as tall as 379 Mini Metros lined up end to end... or more.... “ type cobblers?

 

[Morrisman]

Hello Fizzy,

yes you are right Combined Cycle Gas Turbine generators are around 60% efficient, as they use waste heat to create steam to run steam turbines. They are not quite as flexible as open cycle gas turbines which can start and be online in minutes and likewise can shut down in minutes.

The other thing about gas is that they emit less CO2 per Mwatt than coal. The downside is that in winter there is a large demand for gas for heating and with the government forcing coal generating plants to shut down in the next few short years, we will be totally reliant on gas to keep the grid powered. all our fuel eggs in one basket. It's foolhardy in my opinion.

Alec

The UK still imports millions of tons of wood each year for fuel for power stations, supposedly in the guise of processed waste wood chips.... but apparently not as ‘honestly’ done and green as they would like us to think....

...but they don’t like to talk about that at parties.

 

[fizzy]

The UK still imports millions of tons of wood each year for fuel for power stations, supposedly in the guise of processed waste wood chips.... but apparently not as ‘honestly’ done and green as they would like us to think....

...but they don’t like to talk about that at parties.

I know another thing that makes my blood boil. They are destroying virgin forests to do it.

https://www.nrdc.org/sites/default/files/global-markets-biomass-energy-06172019.pdf

 

[8ob]

I know another thing that makes my blood boil. They are destroying virgin forests to do it. /QUOTE]

The whole biomass circus is a joke, it couldn't possibly further away from carbon neutral if you tried. Logistically its also laughable with trucks running chip from the UK to the continent and then trucks running the stuff back to meet demand. I could rattle on but I am involved in this game.

Bob