Problems with defender bulkhead fitting.

[julianf]

Having some issues here that i can't resolve.

I've spoken on landrover forums, but, once the two adjustment options are repeated, suggestions run dry - im hoping people here may be able to help?


So, ive got this bulkhead -

Its going on this monstrosity -

(yes, i got it years ago, but have had a bit of a pause!)


Note - the outriggers have been replaced, and also the sills. But, the sills measure up, spot on, when compared to a stock vehicle (b-post to sill end), and the outriggers were done with some amount of care.



But...


So here is the foot -

You can put spacers in that gap (its not "spaced" nor tightened up in the photo), but the more spacers you put in, the tighter you close up the gap at the bottom of the door.

This gap -

Which isnt far off being right. Thats not my problem.

Also, the more spacers you put in, the closer you get to the sill. At some point you conflict. Im talking this part (but this photo is on the other side to all the others) -

My point is, you cant just keep adding spacers, otherwise you mess up the bottom door gap, but also have to shorten the sill! (and yes, its a fabricated sill, but its spot on dimensionally against a stock one)


So, you have the pivot point on the outrigger. If the outrigger was too far towards the front or the rear of the truck (ie if id put it on in the wrong place) then more or less spacers would be required. It shouldnt be a terminal error. Although if it were too high or low, im not sure. But i dont even know if thats possible, as the new outriggers wrap around the top of the chassis rails (ie locate height there) and also sit on top of a thick tie bar back to the chassis itself (that has not been altered) so locate there also. I mean, their height could be wrong, but i dont think its that likley. But, somthing IS wrong somwhere....


Because this is the top of the door -

Loads of overlap. The whole bulkhead needs to tilt forwards, toward the front of the vehical, to sort out that top door gap.


So, to recap, you have the fowards / back adjustment using the spacers on the foot / outrigger joint, and that seems set right (bottom door gap is fine), and this is also a pivot point.

...which is maintained by this bracket -

Which mounts to the footwells, and to the chassis.

The holes in the bracket are elongated, so as you can move the bracket forwards and back on the chassis rail. So you pull the footwell forwards, pivot on the A post feet, and alter the door gap at the top of the doors.


...except you dont. Or i dont.

At the full extent of travel on those brackets, pulling the footwells as far forwards as i can get them, even if i get a bar in between the A post foot and outrigger, and lever that joint open as far as i can (ie until the foot conflicts with the end of the sill) with a friend watching the b-post / door top gap, im not getting to where i need to be.


So, what now?


Sills could be too short - but theyre millimetre perfect when compared to the stock sill end to b post on my friends 90. (i understand 90 and 110 are otherwise different, but this part is the same)

Outriggers could be too high or low? If they were higher, all other things being equal, i think this would tilt the bulkhead the right way? But, again, they locate over the tops of the chassis rails. This is a photo of one -

The bit on the left goes over the chassis rail, and, indeed, the bit on the very very far left actually lips round to the inside of the chassis. You'd pretty much have to cut the whole thing about to try and get it to locate at an angle. Im not sure it would happen by chance?


(but, saying that, ive only tacked the outriggers on at present, as i wanted to be sure they were in the right place, so maybe there is flex, but im clutching at straws now!)





So this is a long post, but i wanted to go through all the detail. I dont really know what to do now?

Thank you.

 

[Spark plug]

These things are never fun, one only way to get it right is to weld the outriggers ware they need to go, not ware they should go.

best thing to do is cut them back off, bolt them to the bulkhead with 3-4 washers in between for final adjustment. Get everything lined up then weld them on ware they need to be, even if you have to trim, pack them to fit.

it’s best to do them one at a time but too late for that.

 

[Screwdriver]

I'm not entirely sure I understand the problem. You say the body is "millimetre perfect" but something doesn't fit? I assume that must be the door

Put the door exactly where you want it, then move the brackets to where they need to be.

 

[hotponyshoes]

I would start by measuring everything and working out what exactly is wrong
Obviously something must be out.
Once I had worked out where the problem was I would then work out if it is easier to fix that problem or work around it another way.

 

[Ton-up]

I feel your pain!! Having owned several and built a few 'specials', I can only say that all of them started off way off line from the factory! Add in years of abuse and as you have found, old repairs, you end up with twisted chassis and body panels.

Cut outriggers and mounts to suit body, not the body to suit mounts!!!

I found the only way is to basically forget all factory mounts. Check rear crossmember is square, bolt rear body on and check it sideways to rails. Put bulkhead and screen on loosely and put roof on. Tighten roof up onto back body. Put doors on and line up to bulkhead, B pillars etc. Put front wings on. Support everything on blocks, jacks, etc.
Line up barrel side swage with string the length of vehicle. You'll need to adjust EVERYTHING!!

I had a 110 CSW that was hit on the B pillar by a lorry trailer whilst parked. It was at the body shop for ages and I refused it 3 times as they couldn't get it straight again!

 

[julianf]

I'm not entirely sure I understand the problem. You say the body is "millimetre perfect" but something doesn't fit? I assume that must be the door

Put the door exactly where you want it, then move the brackets to where they need to be.

Sill is correct length. That is all i said.

 

[julianf]

These things are never fun, one only way to get it right is to weld the outriggers ware they need to go, not ware they should go.

best thing to do is cut them back off, bolt them to the bulkhead with 3-4 washers in between for final adjustment. Get everything lined up then weld them on ware they need to be, even if you have to trim, pack them to fit.

it’s best to do them one at a time but too late for that.

Do you think then that the outrigger height is the issue?

The front to back position can just be adjusted using the spacer washers on the feet.

I guess the way to see would be to bolt up the bulkhead to the footwell brackets, say, at mid "extension" on the chassis slots, and then jack up the bulkhead feet and see if it all comes right.

Somewhat easier said than done, of course!

 

[Spark plug]

Do you think then that the outrigger height is the issue?

The front to back position can just be adjusted using the spacer washers on the feet.

I guess the way to see would be to bolt up the bulkhead to the footwell brackets, say, at mid "extension" on the chassis slots, and then jack up the bulkhead feet and see if it all comes right.

Somewhat easier said than done, of course!

Take nothing for granted with these things, just because it’s new, or it came from the factory like that doesn’t meant it’s right.

What your trying to achieve is for everything to fit in unison and it’s easier said than done I’ve spent many days pulling my hair out trying to figure out what’s going on and there’s lost going on.

The most important thing is that the bulkhead sits square and perpendicular to the chassis, bear in mind if you move the bulkhead to fit the doors this can make it impossible to fit the wings.

 

[Shox Dr]

Easiest way to build a landrover is fit tub to rear mounts then loosely fit bulkhead (it will need proping up), fit doors and adjusting to get door to bulkhead gap set. Then pack the bolt holding the bulkhead to the outrigger, to get the rear of the door(s) gap set
Simples

 

[MoreWellie]

I am assuming you haven't worked on the bulkhead and that it fitted ok before you took it out, if someone else has "fixed" the bulkhead you could be in a whole different world of pain as the feet may not be in the right place heightwise. I do have a rough jig I made before repairing a bulkhead so could measure some bits for you if it helps

sometimes you just dont think they will ever fit but they do in the end unless something has bent significantly, i have had to use a ratchet strap from side to side to pull the feet close enough together to get the bolts in

I get the tub fitted first (my experience is 90s and a 3 door 109) as that has relatively little movement capability but I am assuming you haven't removed the rear so it will still be a good point of reference. One thing to check would be that the weight of the roof and screen hasn't bent the b pillar area down, I have always taken the roof off when removing bulkheads and I don't know how well supported the 110 B pillar is

Assuming that hasn't moved I work up from the bottom

fit the bulkhead without the doors and get it on to the bolts (the footwell to chassis supports should be in place but not bolted to the footwells. My experience suggests it will need about 5mm of washers between the bulkhead and the outriggers but I adjust this to give about 88cm for where the door fits

You can check the height by sighting along the body line from the back of the tub and check the curve of the tub lines up with the bulkhead, your only way to adjust the height would be moving the outriggers but I haven't had to do this

Once the bulkhead is spaced correctly from the outriggers I then use ratchet straps to pull the bulkhead backwards or forwards until the lower half is parallel with the door opening at the B pillar (in my case this was the tub), then attach the footwell support and use the necessary number of spacers between the bracket and the footwell to keep the bulkhead at the right angle. For some reason it is easy to forget there were spacers here

when you attach the windscreen to the bulkhead there is some degree of adjustment on the angle by adjusting the nuts especially as yours is probably an older one with hinges rather than fixed brackets so this may help the fit at the top of the door

One other thing is the sills on a 90 look to be a fixed length but the brackets at either end are just bolted on the horizontal and at least one end of the horizontal piece has slots in it so the length is adjustable, not sure if it is the same on a 110

Then you can test fit the doors

 

[8ob]

Get the tape measure out Julian

 

[TomCGB]

I think the consensus is that Land Rover bulkheads can be a complete pain. Certainly mine wasn't easy.

Some of my initial thoughts (that others haven't already mentioned) that might seem stupid/obvious:

Is the gap between the bulkhead and outrigger on both sides?

Have you tried to fit the gearbox tunnel pieces? Is there enough space for them between the seatbox and the bulkhead? This might indicate if you are out all the way across the bulkhead, or if its just at the sills. Or the bulkhead could be bowed slightly.

I'm assuming that you took the photo of the bulkhead to chassis bracket before you undid it and moved it forwards, because in the pic it looks to be in the fully rearward position. When I put my bulkhead on, I left the brackets loose and didn't bolt them to the footwell until I had the doors on. That way things can move a little more.

If your roof is on ok at the back, the top of the screen needs to come forward a bit. This would bring the bulkhead further forward at the top slightly, as it does look canted back at a small angle.

 

[pedrobedro]

We did all sorts to make the doors fit on my friend's. Built the thing then fit the doors where you want them and then modified the hinge holes and strikers to suit in the end.

 

[sako243]

It might be the photo but it looks to me as if the bolt through the outrigger is not horizontal, i.e. it's angled up slightly. If I remember correctly those should be horizontal, might be worth checking how true it is with respect to the chassis?

 

[MoreWellie]

bolt through the outrigger is not horizontal

it would be once it is done up, the holes in the outrigger and bulkhead tube are oversize to allow for alignment issues, which Julian has

 

[julianf]

It might be the photo but it looks to me as if the bolt through the outrigger is not horizontal, i.e. it's angled up slightly. If I remember correctly those should be horizontal, might be worth checking how true it is with respect to the chassis?

I'll check but there's a fair bit of movement in that anyway. Ie the bolt isn't a absolute perfect fit in the outrigger but can pivot a little.

I tacked the new outriggers on with them bolted to the old bulkhead, so they should be right. But most of the footwell of the old bulkhead was gone, so there could have been some movement.

I'm going to have a go with bobs measurements later and see what's what with them.

 

[MoreWellie]

Get the tape measure out

not looked at these before, curious that the overall length can vary by 5mm but the width between the bulkhead bolts is always 1501.8mm

 

[julianf]

To answer a few points -

The photos taken were before anything was done up. Some of the issue got a bit better but not by much. Ie same problems, just reduced a little.

I had no photos from it all done up, hence having to use what I had on my phone for illustration.


I'm going to check the measurements from Bob's data and then try with the windscreen positioned correct.

I strongly suspect the bulkhead will go into the right place then without much effort, but that the foot well to chassis bracket things won't line up at all.

It's not that the bulkhead is monstrously wrong in that I need to bend it to my will. It's more that it just won't stay in the right place with the fixings availible.

But adding the windscreen may well keep it in place - I guess then I'll have to modify the footwell brackets.

Someone told me that they thought the footwell to chassis brackets on the puma were slotted differently, and that they may be interchangable (and help) but they were not 100% sure. Somthing for me to look into.

 

[MoreWellie]

foot well to chassis bracket things

You did see what I said about the spacers that are normally in between them?

The part number is NRC7131 and you may need more than 1 per side

Part 8 on page 744 here http://www.retroanaconda.com/landrover/parts_books/110/9_body_and_chassis_p741-909.pdf

 

[julianf]

You did see what I said about the spacers that are normally in between them?

The part number is NRC7131 and you may need more than 1 per side

Part 8 on page 744 here http://www.retroanaconda.com/landrover/parts_books/110/9_body_and_chassis_p741-909.pdf

Yes, but...

Those spacers will tilt the bulkhead toward the back of the vehicle - which is entirely the opposite to what i want.

I need less spacers there, not more. And i currently have zero! : )