Question about gas heaters

[Domdom]

Help me out chaps. Gas heaters with open flames. One being a portable one with the normal 3 panels that glow when they get hot. You know the ones, about the height of some desk drawers, sits on wheels and has the gas bottle inside it. These work fine indoors, that’s what they’re designed for. All good.

Compare that to a patio heater thing. Similar principles in that it’s a gas burner which heats some steel mesh instead of the panels. This is apparently not safe for use indoors, the manual citing things like carbon monoxide. Fair enough.

So why is one OK indoors and the other not? They both burn the same gas to heat a radiating medium. Neither has a flue. They both burn either propane or butane. It’s confusing me badly

 

[waddycall]

The indoor one will have an ODS pilot (oxygen depletion sensor) that will turn off the heater if the oxygen level in the room gets reduced by the presence of too much combustion products (carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, and water vapour). It will have also passed numerous safety tests both at type approval and during regular production audits to make sure this works properly and that it will work safely in an indoor environment.
The outdoor heater will be equipped and tested as suitable for use outside where the risks of carbon monoxide poisoning and asphyxiation are greatly reduced.

 

[Domdom]

Perfect, thanks for this. Simple when it’s explained.

 

[Misterg]

As well as being fitted with an ODS, the indoor one will run on butane, which you are allowed to keep indoors; The patio one will (probably) run on propane which you aren't allowed to keep indoors.

 

[8ob]

The indoor one will have an ODS pilot (oxygen depletion sensor) that will turn off the heater if the oxygen level in the room gets reduced by the presence of too much combustion products (carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, and water vapour). It will have also passed numerous safety tests both at type approval and during regular production audits to make sure this works properly and that it will work safely in an indoor environment.
The outdoor heater will be equipped and tested as suitable for use outside where the risks of carbon monoxide poisoning and asphyxiation are greatly reduced.

As well as being fitted with an ODS, the indoor one will run on butane, which you are allowed to keep indoors; The patio one will (probably) run on propane which you aren't allowed to keep indoors.

Proof that every day is a school day

Bob

 

[Kayos]

Can't add anything to @waddycall excellent description

I will say I've cleaned/serviced a few patio heaters and they are the cheapest, simplest devices there is, even if it had an oxypilot I wouldn't want it in the house

Indoor heaters are much higher quality

 

[Autotec]

This also brings into question the use of diesel/kerosene space heaters in workshops.

 

[JOEPRO]

This also brings into question the use of diesel/kerosene space heaters in workshops.

Re Gas or direct diesel heaters in a garage - both introduce alot of moisture and fumes. Not ideal for a garage environment at all as the extra moisture will quickly rust any tools etc.

This is why many people, including myself, have changed to the chinesium indirect diesel garage heaters. Because these exhaust the fumes / spent fuel vapour outside. No fumes, no moisture, no huge leccie bills.

 

[Bladevane]

I was under the impression (maybe wrongly) that the indoor version was premixed combustion and the outdoor was diffusion. The difference being the former mixes oxygen with the gas before combustion and the latter takes as much oxygen as the combustion process requires. Like a school Bunsen burner when the air collar is adjusted.

 

[Kayos]

I was under the impression (maybe wrongly) that the indoor version was premixed combustion and the outdoor was diffusion. The difference being the former mixes oxygen with the gas before combustion and the latter takes as much oxygen as the combustion process requires. Like a school Bunsen burner when the air collar is adjusted.

All burners are premix, an injector and air holes plus secondary air. Even "yellow" flames for effect are premix

 

[gaz1]

This also brings into question the use of diesel/kerosene space heaters in workshops.

they also should be used with a co2 monitor but many are not

the fumes can affect you whilst your under the car whilst being warmed by the heater

it also depends on the air change out as well

 

[Morrisman]

How about the gas cooker and hob I have, runs on bulk lpg, no flue for it.

 

[Kayos]

How about the gas cooker and hob I have, runs on bulk lpg, no flue for it.

Minimum room volume and ventilation, also even a "big" burner is actually small Vs volume of air in a room

 

[Bladevane]

All burners are premix, an injector and air holes plus secondary air. Even "yellow" flames for effect are premix

At the risk of getting into an argument with a heating engineer I beg to differ, Bunsen burners with the collar closed are diffusion and with the collar open are premix. Industrial gas turbines used to start on diffusion (because the flame is more stable) then switch over to premix above a predetermined load, at which point NOx measurement became active. So not all burners are premix. A yellow flame is “cold” and indicates unburnt fuel is present.

 

[Kayos]

At the risk of getting into an argument with a heating engineer I beg to differ, Bunsen burners with the collar closed are diffusion and with the collar open are premix. Industrial gas turbines used to start on diffusion (because the flame is more stable) then switch over to premix above a predetermined load, at which point NOx measurement became active. So not all burners are premix. A yellow flame is “cold” and indicates unburnt fuel is present.

All burners in the context of this discussion are premix burners

 

[brightspark]

heres one for you patio gas is dearer than propane to fill. both the same weight . for what reason i already know the answer

 

[Erie Fred]

heres one for you patio gas is dearer than propane to fill. both the same weight . for what reason i already know the answer

Taxation as it's not used for home heating ?

IIRC propane bulk delivery to a house has less taxation than getting a 20lb BBQ bottle filled up.

 

[brightspark]

Taxation as it's not used for home heating ?

IIRC propane bulk delivery to a house has less taxation than getting a 20lb BBQ bottle filled up.

nupe

 

[Cobbler]

A posh bottle with a clip on reg for leisure use, not used commercially so can charge more.

 

[brightspark]

A posh bottle with a clip on reg for leisure use, not used commercially so can charge more.

nearly rite .clip on regs used on patio bottles so tools arent needed to replace because if people are pi.ssed and the regs are screwed on might leak and blow someone up