Total novice - advice needed please.

[Jorge]

Hello all,

I have no experience of welding other than a couple of occasions in earlier years when someone has offered me to 'have a go' at they're arc welding kit which was always a total failure. Would anyone mind giving me some advice on how to get started and on problems I now find... real basic questions and probably silly (apologies).

I'm trying to learn arc welding so as to repair a motorcycle frame after giving it to two different 'pro' welders who have done less than a good job. I'm not doing anything structural or strength critical, I'm more trying to cover/tidy up what has already been done (can't afford to risk someone else messing it up more).

Please excuse me if I get any terminology wrong, I really am a dummy to this!

I have purchased a Cevik 160 Amp A/C machine and a supply of Rutile rods to practise with (1.6mm and 2.6mm). I would have liked to have purchased an inverter machine, but I just couldn't afford the cost and I thought if I could master the AC it would give me a good basic grounding to start from.

As I say, please forgive me, these are real basic/silly questions:

1. is new sheet metal the best to practise on?. I ensure the metal is clean and rust free and have had some success in running beads, but it seems to sometimes be a difficult material (compared to some other scraps I have tried) to stick the arc on... dozens of little 'dots' where I keep tapping/scratching to unsuccessfully get an arc. I'm trying mostly with the 2.6 rods with settings between 80-120A.

2. Really silly question... how much should I be able to see through the visor?. I have a cheap helmet and a hand held visor (the hand held I seem to get on best with) with #11 & #12 lenses. I can see the molten metal and obviously the arc flashing, but I can't for the life of me see where I intend to go. Is this normal or should I consider a weaker lens and if so how low can I go without risking eye damage.

3. From what I read on the net, I think I understand that the arc length is measured in mm. Is it me or my machine because this sounds like a super human feat to keep the rod off the material to such a degree and I am finding (I think what is happening) that I have to have to have the rod lightly dragging on the material because I don't get an arc if I raise the rod very far. How far could an arc actually be expected to jump with my setup?

I have searched to internet an forum, but I'm finding it difficult to pick out what actually applies to me, so any advice would be really appreciated.

Sorry for the long post, I tried to be accurate as far as my knowledge takes me.

Thank you very much.
Jorge

 

[shenion]

1. New sheet metal may be zinc coated. That will make it difficult. Or, it may have mill scale. Either way, it needs to be cleaned off; a flap wheel works best.

2. Add as much ambient light as you can. An auto darkening mask makes it easier to see where you are starting and can go down to a #9. The handheld is near useless, having 2 hands free really helps. You can mark a like with chalk.

3. Low-end arc welders can't maintain much of an arc length. Smaller 6013 rods work best if dragged lightly as the arc length is hidden as the flux extends past the end. Cheap rods make it more difficult.

Welcome to the forums

 

[rich r]

A helmet with shade 9 or 10 is probably about what you want for that size rod. Ideally spend €40 on an auto-darkening one. It'll mean you can position the rod perfectly when you start the weld and let you use your other hand to steady the rod.

If you're just learning, stick to the 2.6mm rods - you'll find 1.6mm very tricky to maintain the correct arc length. Set your welder to 80A for the 2.6mm and practice laying straight lines of weld on scrap metal that's around 5mm thick. Don't worry about welding on vertical surfaces until you get the hang of horizontal ones.

Have a look at the tutorials at the top of this website - they're very good at showing you what you should be doing to get started. Also there are some very good videos on YouTube. This is particularly good, even though helmets and things have moved on a bit - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWdgEaXWDxQ

With practice, you'll find you can hold the rod the right distance off the surface. But start by angling the rod about 30-40 degrees off vertical and dragging it along. Then once you get the hang of how fast you need to go, try making it more like 20-30 degrees and lifting it off the surface slightly. After a while you'll be able to hold it at the optimal angle (usually 10-15 degrees off vertical) and maintain the distance as you move along. Using your left hand to steady the rod helps a lot until the rod gets down to 10cm or so!

Clean off surfaces with an angle grinder. You'll find you're using the grinder as much as you're using the welder a lot of the time...

Keep practising, after a while it'll come naturally...

 

[Jorge]

Hi Shenion and Rich. Thank you very much for the replies and welcome.

I've been using mild steel sheet to practise, not zinc plated, but it always seems to have a kind of burnished blue/grey appearance... is this what is called mill scale?.

On a similar note, the first 'real' part I tried welding was some galvanised tube, cut in half along it's length. I had to put this over a steel tube on the motorcycle frame and then weld the two halves back together. I have been fairly successful, with the addition of some post grinding, but I wondered if galvanised is just a coating or does it affect the metal in any other way. I did grind off the visible coating and ground 'V's along the joins before I welded it.

I am a little relieved to know that it is okay to drag my rods (6013), makes me feel that I'm not doing everything wrong and as you say, I can see that the flux seems to be longer than the inner rod.

Just going back to striking the arc for a moment and something I'm not clear about... once I've struck the arc and got the first bead going, I seem to be able to start a new bead, most often, without sticking an arc again... it just starts!... is this because the rod is hot or something or do you only strike the arc initially?. Sometime I can tap the rod on any part of my motorcycle frame and once it has sparked I can move onto the actual work area and it automatically starts arcing (love it when it does that).

I don't want to sound cheap, but I am suffering the recession here in Spain and my pension isn't worth what it used to be, so would something like THIS helmet be any good?

One other question: can you braze (copper/alloy) filler with an AC welder?

Thank you again.
Jorge

 

[shenion]

Yes, once rods are hot, they start easier.

Galvanized is the same as zinc plated; both make the arc unstable and add porosity to the weld as the zinc boils away.

Mill scale can be blue, black or grey. You should always try to do shiny metal. Not only does it make it easier, there will be less chance of toxic fumes.

Most arc welding documentation stresses maintaining an arc length. However, you never see them doing anything under a 3.2mm rod. 2.4mm and less 6013's need to be dragged as there is more flux than metal being deposited. You need to drag the rod or run them real hot.

That helmet should do.

There are ancient brazing attachments for arc welders. They used a pair of carbon rods, I think copper plated. Hard to use and will give anyone in a mile radius a sunburn Not real practical anymore.

 

[triumph]

hi , have used an arc welder for many years to repair and mod my bikes must admit its not the best tool for the job but does me ok have used it for some imposible tasks and its always done as asked.
The trouble with bike parts is they tend to be made of thin material and dont, like been heated up by arc so would recomend u weld in stages allowing bits to cool will help avoid buckling or warping.Try using 1.6 to 2mm rods that may help i find these are ok for bikes ,a lot of arc welding is trail and error but practice and a good technique helps .
Have recently tryed an auto darking helmet and yes they are excellent and would recomend one .
I belive that cheaper arc welders do have a tendency to weld and stick more than some expensive ones mine does it something that u have to work around with practice.All the best with bike repairs Craig.

 

[Jorge]

Hi Scott (sorry I didn'y initially see your first name).

Perhaps it's pro welder related, but I fell about laughing at the sunburn comment

So is galvanised ok to weld once the coating is ground off or has the galvanising process affect the base metal.

Thanks for the info about mill scale, I had noticed some fumes that weren't very pleasant.

Just ordered the helmet

Thank you.
Jorge

Yes, once rods are hot, they start easier.

Galvanized is the same as zinc plated; both make the arc unstable and add porosity to the weld as the zinc boils away.

Mill scale can be blue, black or grey. You should always try to do shiny metal. Not only does it make it easier, there will be less chance of toxic fumes.

That helmet should do.

There are ancient brazing attachments for arc welders. They used a pair of carbon rods, I think copper plated. Hard to use and will give anyone in a mile radius a sunburn Not real practical anymore.

 

[Jorge]

Hi and thank you Triumph.

Much of my task is to cut tube in half (lengthways), place it over existing frame (backbone/down tubes) and then weld the cut seams back together. Also I've manufactured a small box that is to cover where the backbone meets the rear down tubes.

All of this is to cover up horrible joints that a previous welder has done. The frame is mostly 2.5 - 3mm, but some of the tubes/covers I'm making are as thin as 1mm (this worries me with regard to my welding skills )

Also some is going on ( welded to) steel tube, some is cast (headstock etc), I'm not sure what the differences (if any) are as far as welding.

I take it you are a Triumph rider . been hankering after a thunderbird storm, but it is a pipe dream as far as finances go. Hence stitching my old harley back together.

Thanks for the info.
Jorge.

hi , have used an arc welder for many years to repair and mod my bikes must admit its not the best tool for the job but does me ok have used it for some imposible tasks and its always done as asked.
The trouble with bike parts is they tend to be made of thin material and dont, like been heated up by arc so would recomend u weld in stages allowing bits to cool will help avoid buckling or warping.Try using 1.6 to 2mm rods that may help i find these are ok for bikes ,a lot of arc welding is trail and error but practice and a good technique helps .
Have recently tryed an auto darking helmet and yes they are excellent and would recomend one .
I belive that cheaper arc welders do have a tendency to weld and stick more than some expensive ones mine does it something that u have to work around with practice.All the best with bike repairs Craig.

 

[PTvor]

So is galvanised ok to weld once the coating is ground off or has the galvanising process affect the base metal.

Yes, it's fine when the zinc has been removed, but it's not just that the zinc contaminates the weld. The fumes are poisonous and will make you ill. Look up 'fume fever' on Google.

In fact it's best to avoid breathing all welding fumes as much as possible.

 

[triumph]

hi jorge,
no prob , ride modded triumph trident , heavey brutal and total pain to own , but never sell the old dog, harleys are great bikes .Noted u memtioned cast steel , think cast mite need different welding approach may be worth looking at that point as it could lead to stress fracture could be wrong , may be worth asking a member? Be careful with galvo plate nasty when welding as stated by other members ive suffered from it not nice.Not sure if u are cutting into frame if so would be careful with the frame alignment may be worth bolting engine in to help keep things straight if the engine is used as a stressed member ie open cradle frames . all the best craig

 

[Jorge]

Hello and thank you PTvot,

Geee... brass shakes, zinc shakes, Galvie Flu, or Monday morning fever I tend to avoid fumes, but I hadn't realised this. I usually get these symptoms after a beer or two and would never have known it was my welding!

Thanks for the info.
Jorge

Yes, it's fine when the zinc has been removed, but it's not just that the zinc contaminates the weld. The fumes are poisonous and will make you ill. Look up 'fume fever' on Google.

In fact it's best to avoid breathing all welding fumes as much as possible.

 

[Jorge]

hi jorge,
no prob , ride modded triumph trident , heavey brutal and total pain to own , but never sell the old dog,

Hi Craig,

Always aspired to a trident when younger, never managed it. Do they still suffer with head gasket and warping from the middle cylinder. We have a few riding tridents over here.

All of the actual frame modding has been done. It was jigged/aligned nicely, but that isn't a real problem anyway because the engine-gearbox-swingarm are all solidly bolted together and adjust against the headstock alignment by way of an adjustable top engine mount that moves the top of the engine from side to side hence you can bring the wheels into line with each other.

I noticed in the forum tutorials about cast-iron welding, thanks for reminding me. Harley originally weld steel tube into the cast headstock, so I'm hoping it will be okay. I will post a picture in a few days and ask the forum members for any advice.

I think I'll hold off welding anything else until this auto-helmet arrives. I keep getting the temptation to peek outside of the mask when sticking the arc... I know silly.

Jorge.

 

[PTvor]

Geee... brass shakes, zinc shakes, Galvie Flu, or Monday morning fever I tend to avoid fumes, but I hadn't realised this. I usually get these symptoms after a beer or two and would never have known it was my welding!

The bloke next door told me he had fume fever after welding some galvanised trays. He said it was like a dose of flu and his lungs were burning. The only thing which brought any relief was drinking a lot of milk.

The other thing in fumes from welding mild steel is manganese which causes nerve damage over a long time. There are usually warnings on the packets of electrodes about it.

Obviously it's different if you are welding all day every day from doing an hour or two every now and then, but it's certainly worth bearing these things in mind and avoiding breathing in the fumes as much as possible, such as not welding in a shed with no ventilation.