Air Source Heat Pump

[Onoff]

Nothing wrong at all with heat pumps.

However, British housing stock is woefully badly insulated. House builders are notorious for skimping on airtightness detailing and insulation. The care just often isn't taken. Finish the show house and do that properly then apply the test results to rest of the estate.

Also heat pump makers and installers just want to make heat pumps and install them. There's so much money available to be made what with the government pushing them it's pretty rare a surveyor or company will tell you your property is unsuitable.

I bet there's very few people on here realise the level of detail needed.

Where they're fitted and struggle they will just try and run all the time. Ideally a low energy heating system gets the property to temperature and the heat losses through the building fabric are low and slow, otherwise the "boiler" or whatever will just short cycle.

Got to be one of the biggest cons of all time and will potentially use loads more electric than it could irrespective of the 3 or 4:1 or whatever efficiency.

 

[Farside]

Where they're fitted and struggle they will just try and run all the time. Ideally a low energy heating system gets the property to temperature and the heat losses through the building fabric are low and slow,

Exactly. A Scandi-Haus type of place will run quite happily on body heat and perhaps a candle.

 

[Rannsachair]

I have a Mitsibishi Ecodan 8.5 Kw air source heat pump in a largish 3 bedroom bungalow built in 2004, temperatures overnight have been around -6 to -4 and the house has been comfortable with hot radiators and plenty hot water for two adults to shower.

 

[not done it yet]

Let’s be clear about air source heat pumps. They are good for CO2 emissions and that is about all. Unless the dwelling is already using leccy for heating, when it is clearly cheaper because of a COP exceeding unity.

COP is not that great - they quote specs on favourable conditions. Defrosting cycles are likely not specced. That pump is quoted at 7 Celsius and a water temperature of 35 Celsius. There lies the problem.

If fossil-fuelled leccy generation is used, they are no better than a gas boiler, but as the renewable/carbon neutral generation rises the CO2 emissions fall. Cost-wise, leccy is, in most cases more expensive to run than gas.

The only comparable system is, as I see it, the ground (or water) source option. But installation costs are much higher, of course - unless you have a suitable stream running close by…

Air source likely operate better once the temperature drops below freezing - less water vapour in the air to clog up the collector!

A lot of installations actually have a grid-supplied water immersion heater for times of poor COP conditions.

 

[Welderpaul]

That pump is quoted at 7 Celsius and a water temperature of 35 Celsius. There lies the problem.

Why?

 

[mtt.tr]

Why?

Because people don't understand that a well insulated house doesn't require 55c+ rads

 

[Onoff]

I have a Mitsibishi Ecodan 8.5 Kw air source heat pump in a largish 3 bedroom bungalow built in 2004, temperatures overnight have been around -6 to -4 and the house has been comfortable with hot radiators and plenty hot water for two adults to shower.

Scotland? I like to think your house builders take a bit more care than ours. You sark your roofs for a start. Is this a house in an estate type development, a one off bespoke etc?

I'm on a forum of Passive esque self builders where they'll ask around as they're short on 300mm of airtight tape. The best builds are where the person who's house is has been in control of the fine detail, has researched the subject and either done the work themselves or has a builder who understands the requirements and level of attention to detail needed. There's plenty of monied folk on there who've thrown money at a builder who just doesn't get it or care and the results have been problematic.

 

[Onoff]

Exactly. A Scandi-Haus type of place will run quite happily on body heat and perhaps a candle.

Indeed, it's actually worth inviting people round even if you don't really like them as long as they're warm blooded. Of course they can bring their dog and annoying kids.

 

[DAPPH]

I'm under the impression heat pumps are much more efficient for underfloor heating rather than radiators.

Perhaps add a supplementary heat source for when it's brass monkeys.

Whilst not the cheapest things to run, maybe an electric boiler could be integrated fairly simply. The advantages being no flue, no servicing... take up minimal space.
Mines been in 4 years, never had to touch it yet.

The house I mentioned had warm air vents under the floors coming up by the external doors & windows , both up stairs & down stairs in every room
I couldn't hold my hand over the patio doors air vent for long it was that hot .
I think the house though built in 1981/8 2 it was insulated to the current modern UK standard that passes the air leakage & heat retention testing as the owner was a Swede involved in air source heat pumps in the UK.

 

[DAPPH]

Indeed, it's actually worth inviting people round even if you don't really like them as long as they're warm blooded. Of course they can bring their dog and annoying kids.

Doing research for our small mammal farm I discovered that a 3 pound rabbit puts out about 6 watts of heat , four hamster with 14 or so followers about 8 watts worth. etc etc .
It was only when the hard minus 5 oC frost forecasts were made that I put in catalyst clean burn paraffin heaters ..one in each shed .


So with half a dozen house bunnies you be toastie indeed and even hotter if your wife found out .

 

[Turbo]

My cousin put in the ground heat source system when he built his house. It works really well but the pump has a very large motor that eats electricity. He knew this & was going to erect a small windmill to offset the electricity costs. But when he went for full planning permission for the windmill he was refused, even though they had said yes at first. He lives in the middle of nowhere with no near neighbours so no clear reason for refusal!

So he is now stuck with a big electricity bill until the planners get sense & permit the windmill!

 

[DAPPH]

My cousin put in the ground heat source system when he built his house. It works really well but the pump has a very large motor that eats electricity. He knew this & was going to erect a small windmill to offset the electricity costs. But when he went for full planning permission for the windmill he was refused, even though they had said yes at first. He lives in the middle of nowhere with no near neighbours so no clear reason for refusal!

So he is now stuck with a big electricity bill until the planners get sense & permit the windmill!

Perhaps all he needs to do these days is ask them what size turbine would be acceptable & get the answer in writing . Then put in planning for one or two of them to help charge a home made power wall just for the heat pump ?

Spin the back up story about how you would saving the planet and resources etc etc . if permission is granted ,

 

[Farside]

My cousin put in the ground heat source system when he built his house. It works really well but the pump has a very large motor that eats electricity. He knew this & was going to erect a small windmill to offset the electricity costs. But when he went for full planning permission for the windmill he was refused, even though they had said yes at first. He lives in the middle of nowhere with no near neighbours so no clear reason for refusal!

So he is now stuck with a big electricity bill until the planners get sense & permit the windmill!

Does he have a suitable spot for a vertical axis 'mill? Much less intrusive and probably get the planners thinking a bit instead of knee-jerking.

 

[Turbo]

Perhaps all he needs to do is ask them what size turbine would be acceptable get the answer in writing and put in planning for one or two of them to help charge a home made power wall just for the heat pump ?

He's been battling with them for over 10 years but still no joy. He's a top electrician who knows his onions but no matter what he suggests the answer is no!

Yet there is a farmer near here, quite a few houses around him, beside a busy road & he's erected 2 of the full size windmills, exporting to the grid. Nobody around here can understand how he got away with erecting them but the fact that his son works for the main electricity company over here might be a clue!

In my opinion they are a real eyesore & I've yet to see both of them running, quite often both of them are off!

 

[Farside]

Yet there is a farmer near here, quite a few houses around him, beside a busy road & he's erected 2 of the full size windmills, exporting to the grid. Nobody around here can understand how he got away with erecting them but the fact that his son works for the main electricity company over here might be a clue!

Probably in the same Lodge.

 

[Blobber]

Doing research for our small mammal farm I discovered that a 3 pound rabbit puts out about 6 watts of heat , four hamster with 14 or so followers about 8 watts worth. etc etc .
It was only when the hard minus 5 oC frost forecasts were made that I put in catalyst clean burn paraffin heaters ..one in each shed .


So with half a dozen house bunnies you be toastie indeed and even hotter if your wife found out .

Im confused, do you burn the rabbits/hamsters or cuddle them?

 

[Onoff]

So he is now stuck with a big electricity bill until the planners get sense & permit the windmill!

I'd appeal.

Check out the refusing council's environmental policies then take it to the press. Is it at odds with current government policy on onshore wind etc. That of course U turns daily depending on which incumbent is in power!

Any proof of their initially saying yes? If verbal then trickier. If it was said in a site meeting there'll be a record of the meeting at least. You then take the stance "obviously I wouldn't have installed the GSHP knowing permission wouldn't be granted".

Was it spoken about on the phone? If so are the calls recorded, ask for the recording etc.

If they definitely said it then consider even starting a Stage 1 complaint against them.

I'd first write a letter, do not get snotty and stick to the facts. State the system was installed on the assumption pp would be granted, this based on the call/meeting whatever on such and such a date. That this is now being denied, in the face of the current energy crisis, it going against the council's own policy etc. Finish that you are so upset you're considering going to the press or even starting a Stage 1 complaint against the council. It costs you nothing to do and just makes work for them. Name names too. Finish with you felt you should give them a chance to reconsider first.

 

[Onoff]

Use the fact of the local farmer's install as grounds for permission. Add in the question of the relative's links to the leccy company.

Go big or go home.

What councillors get away with round here on their own plots, whilst having a say on Joe Public's plans is shocking. The stories I could tell.....

 

[Onoff]

Im confused, do you burn the rabbits/hamsters or cuddle them?

Either.

I think some genuine research was done and it was noted 15 cats in a wall mounted cage should heat up the average living room.

 

[8ob]

He's been battling with them for over 10 years but still no joy. He's a top electrician who knows his onions but no matter what he suggests the answer is no!

Yet there is a farmer near here, quite a few houses around him, beside a busy road & he's erected 2 of the full size windmills, exporting to the grid. Nobody around here can understand how he got away with erecting them but the fact that his son works for the main electricity company over here might be a clue!

In my opinion they are a real eyesore & I've yet to see both of them running, quite often both of them are off!

No permission needed for wind turbine's in some places, having an existing air source heat pump is one of the criteria for needing permission.

Legal Plan and Permission Wind Turbines

Advice and guidance on planning permission for Wind turbines, renewable energy provision requires specialist planning knowledge.

renewableenergyhub.co.uk

Bob