amp- thickness

[abnormalsheep]

These are some quick shots I took for the industrial marine welder who's offered his opinion (suggesting 4mm rods and 200amp machine). So the particular worry spots aren't highlighted but you get the general idea...

Generally ok, just a bit wobbly looking?

Still dunno about grinding out the lot or just patching the worry spots.

Let me know reviews of quality anyway. The marine welder thought they were really bad but yard welder said to just cap it. Problem with capping is extending the leg a bit too far?

If I grind out only the worry spots others might be missed and there may well be others. Will get some more photos when I can..!

 

[Richard.]

Well these look to have already stood against the test of time.
Granted they are not the neatest and I can see things like undercut and lack of interrun fusion but they are there and in tact. I thought this welding was new welding and you had concerns about it but those have clearly spent some time on the water already. Unless you can actually see a real problem with them what’s stopping you just cleaning them up and coating them to suit.

 

[Gwil]

Remember that structural strength of small steel vessels- even indifferently welded- far exceeds what is necessary, even in testing open sea conditions, and this is a canal boat. Cracked or otherwise failed welds are vanishingly rare apart from in substructures like rudders/skegs etc.

My experience of surveying steel vessels is that internal corrosion is the major problem. Avoiding water traps, cleaning up weld spatter and sound coating systems are the things to worry about more imho.

 

[abnormalsheep]

Sorry about the delayed reply... I work all weekend so very little time in between.


Today put my boat on hardstanding so that's consumed most of the hours.


It's been out in the yard for over 6 months, which is why all the welds are rusted. They haven't been underwater yet!


I am a tad concerned about the internal corrosion too, as when I got the boat we thought we'd have it in the water by now, so we rushed the overplating and didn't treat the rusty hull. There is a considerable gap between the plates in some places. The welder who did the job reassured me the heat from the welding would drive out any of the moisture and air that is required for rust to thrive. Any second opinions on this?


I've been treating the metal inside and painting. We also lined it with angle iron as most of the holes were where the rubbing edge used to be.. so hopefully the void between the plates isn't much to worry about...!?

 

[Gwil]

If the void is effectively welded shut- you can drill, tap, and fit a tyre valve for pressure testing if you want to confirm this- then the absence of oxygen makes corrosion impossible. Think of hollow metal rudders etc. Cut them up after decades and there will only be the light initial corrosion on the inside.

If you're confident of the welding I wouldn't worry too much. After all, a canal's not very deep!

Seriously though, these kind of vessels have been overplated for, well, over a century, even in riveted construction, which relied on luting the joints with some unholy concoction including putty and paint, and then subsequent corrosion pulling the plating tight.

 

[cianh91]

Forgive me if this offends but you've mentioned concerns of cracking, and sinking your boat. Would this not be a better job to out source to someone who already has the required skill set and knowledge.

Don’t wanna sound bad either but your lack of general mma knowledge and fear of cracking would lead me too outsourcing or getting a bit of tuition on mma welding from someone used to this type of work

 

[Gwil]

Don’t wanna sound bad either but your lack of general mma knowledge and fear of cracking would lead me too outsourcing or getting a bit of tuition on mma welding from someone used to this type of work

Don't frighten the man! In all the (often amateur built) steel boats I've surveyed/ultrasound inspected/hammer sounded/examined every centimetre of etc., I've yet to find weld cracking other than stress related in areas, like rudders, with inadequate scantlings.

Canal boats are, in effect, very lightly stressed steel boxes. Don't overthink it!

 

[cianh91]

Not wanting to frighten atal I’m just sayin he might be better to get some more knowledge on mma welding before he starts

 

[MichaelV]

Hi AS

In the spirit of encouraging you, could I suggest you get hold of some plate and “get your eye in”. With decent quality, and above all suitable, rods you’ll be impressed at how it comes along.

There are some very user-friendly rods to choose from; recently I’ve found the Böhler Spezial D 7016 to be in that category. The example below is a multi-pass fillet on 12mm material, all run at 110A, DC+. The point being that there’s scope to get perfectly adequate penetration at perfectly moderate currents.

All the best with your project
Michael

PS... I’d echo Gwil’s comments too.

 

[Richard.]

Hi AS

In the spirit of encouraging you, could I suggest you get hold of some plate and “get your eye in”. With decent quality, and above all suitable, rods you’ll be impressed at how it comes along.

There are some very user-friendly rods to choose from; recently I’ve found the Böhler Spezial D 7016 to be in that category. The example below is a multi-pass fillet on 12mm material, all run at 110A, DC+. The point being that there’s scope to get perfectly adequate penetration at perfectly moderate currents.

All the best with your project
Michael

View attachment 133794

PS... I’d echo Gwil’s comments too.

These are not full blooded 7016. They don’t have the impact results at low temps. They are primarily a hybrid rod with excellent weld ability like a rutile with moderate low hydrogen properties. Great for beginners wanting to start out with low hydrogen’s as they are much easier to restrike.
Here’s your -30 charpies for the spezial

Here’s your -45 charpies for filarc 56s.

 

[MichaelV]

Indeed so, Richard.

They would most likely be more approachable for someone contemplating @abnormalsheep ’s type of project. I’m something of a fan of 56S for open root situations, but as you know, they run in a somewhat stuttering mode and can be off-putting until you get comfortable.

It’s been my experience that the Spezial D need a wee skelp with the file to get them ready for re-striking.

I’ll put some 56S specimens up later.

Thanks
Michael

 

[slim_boy_fat]

After all, a canal's not very deep!

Water doesn't need to be deep, you can drown in a saucer of water [if you're determined enough ]

 

[MichaelV]

Water doesn't need to be deep, you can drown in a saucer of water [if you're determined enough ]

It’s not like youse boys to economise now, Slim, eh?

 

[slim_boy_fat]

It’s not like youse boys to economise now, Slim, eh?

Waste not, want naught

 

[Richard.]

I’m something of a fan of 56S for open root situations,

They are My personal favourite vertical rods. As you say they sit beautifully in a root gap with a soft arc. That lapping or stuttering characteristic about them is actually something I like. Hard to describe why it’s just a characteristic of the rod I find quite nice as it’s going in on the side wall. You know what I mean cos I sure is hell cant put it into words.

 

[MichaelV]

You know what I mean cos I sure is hell cant put it into words.

“Sublime”, Richard

 

[abnormalsheep]

I dunno if it's really worth mentioning that I'm not a man, but I have had a little experience with mma. Really enjoyed it! Was practising on and under another boats rubbing bars. Did a fair few metres with curly slag and lovely looking welds.

I've been both intimidated and encouraged by other welders, one saying that there's no way I could do watertight welds (I did hear one of his pop while he was working on another part of the boat too!?) and that only much experienced welders could do it. The other marine builder (biig ships) was also a bit hesitant with his encouragement but not entirely. One of the welders on the yard (who used to weld high pressure pipes) said I was perfectly capable (he'd examined my rubbing bar welds) and if I was unsure to just grind it out and do it again. It was also him who said that existing welds were ok and to just cap them if I really wanted to.

There's another guy on the yard who's only just learnt welding through doing his own boat, and another girl doing similar.

Soo, I don't scare easy anyway! It's very reassuring to know that cracks are more uncommon than I thought. I was reading about getting tested to qualify, and I got the impression bad welds were weak. And that even if a weld looks good it might be "bad".

Most of mine came up lovely, peeling slag, nice form (like the photos you find in the fault examples). So all your comments have been really encouraging, that mma is generally solid as a default.

Canals aren't deep but boats are heavy and tricky to get out, bruises the bank a bit too! My plan is to carry a minimum of 4 water pumps to keep it afloat if it does spring a leak!

All that being said, I can only guess at those rod stats! Is -30° the environment temp?

When I was welding I was often using a rod all in one swipe so the restriking isn't much of an issue.

Was nice after a few months out of practice I had a go on someone's rudderbar thing and pulled it off perfectly first try.

So if you can feel it meet both bits of metal, and the weld looks good and the slag pops off without using a hammer, it's a good weld?

 

[Gwil]

I dunno if it's really worth mentioning that I'm not a man, but I have had a little experience with mma. Really enjoyed it! Was practising on and under another boats rubbing bars. Did a fair few metres with curly slag and lovely looking welds.

I've been both intimidated and encouraged by other welders, one saying that there's no way I could do watertight welds (I did hear one of his pop while he was working on another part of the boat too!?) and that only much experienced welders could do it. The other marine builder (biig ships) was also a bit hesitant with his encouragement but not entirely. One of the welders on the yard (who used to weld high pressure pipes) said I was perfectly capable (he'd examined my rubbing bar welds) and if I was unsure to just grind it out and do it again. It was also him who said that existing welds were ok and to just cap them if I really wanted to.

There's another guy on the yard who's only just learnt welding through doing his own boat, and another girl doing similar.

Soo, I don't scare easy anyway! It's very reassuring to know that cracks are more uncommon than I thought. I was reading about getting tested to qualify, and I got the impression bad welds were weak. And that even if a weld looks good it might be "bad".

Most of mine came up lovely, peeling slag, nice form (like the photos you find in the fault examples). So all your comments have been really encouraging, that mma is generally solid as a default.

Canals aren't deep but boats are heavy and tricky to get out, bruises the bank a bit too! My plan is to carry a minimum of 4 water pumps to keep it afloat if it does spring a leak!

All that being said, I can only guess at those rod stats! Is -30° the environment temp?

When I was welding I was often using a rod all in one swipe so the restriking isn't much of an issue.

Was nice after a few months out of practice I had a go on someone's rudderbar thing and pulled it off perfectly first try.

So if you can feel it meet both bits of metal, and the weld looks good and the slag pops off without using a hammer, it's a good weld?

I think you've got an excellent handle on it.

If boats don't hit something most sinkings are a result of failed skin fittings, stern glands or maybe too many plastic bags of cocaine stowed too high up....generally canal boats are keel cooled and have few or no skin fittings, are made of good thick plate and generally hilariously overbuilt!

You'll be fine.

 

[slim_boy_fat]

I dunno if it's really worth mentioning that I'm not a man

Makes no difference on here , in fact we have a good few female members e.g. @KimB , @mrsbruce and others whose usernames escape me for the moment.

 

[Richard.]

Makes no difference on here , in fact we have a good few female members e.g. @KimB , @mrsbruce and others whose usernames escape me for the moment.

@Sparkey
She’s a good laugh when she pops on