anyone thinking of a paraffin heater for this winter

[minimutly]

IIRC One pint of hydrocarbon burnt produces approx 8 pints of water in the fumes given off & that included the catalyst burners
I was using 25 litres of high grade paraffin per day to heat just one of our small mammal breeding sheds had to buy it in 25 litre containers 10 at a time to get any worth while saving then hump the bloody things to the car & out the car into the fuel store shed .

Surely something wrong there?

 

[voipio]

Surely something wrong there?

Which got me thinking...

Kerosene a.k.a. paraffin, is a mixture of hydrocarbons. Although it is not a pure single substance, we could, for the purposes of argument, consider an average formula to be something in the region of C12H26 (see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerosene ).

The burning of kerosene consumes oxygen (O2) and results in the production of carbon dioxide (CO2) and water (H2O), according to an equation that would be something like:

C12H26 + 18.5O2 = 12CO2 + 13H2O

What this tells us is that burning 1mol of kerosene produces 13mols of H2O, plus 12mols of CO2. (1 mol of a substance is contained in the molecular weight of that substance in grams)

The molecular weights are as follows:

Kerosene average MW = 170 (so 170g of kerosene would contain 1mol of the substance)
Water MW = 18
CO2 MW = 44

The density of kerosene is around 0.8g/ml, so 1 litre of kerosene = 800g, which equates to 800 / 170 = 4.706mols

The amount of water produced by burning 1 litre of kerosene will be 4.706 x 13 = 61.2 mols of water, which weighs 61.2 x 18 = 1102g i.e. 1.1 litres of liquid water but, since this will be water vapour (i.e. a gas) it will be around 1475 litres of water vapour at 20degC (since 1 mol of a gas occupies 24.1 litres at normal temp and pressure; see https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/stp-standard-ntp-normal-air-d_772.html). i.e. burning 1 litre of kerosene will release around 1475 litres of water vapour at room temp.

Burning that 1litre of kerosene will also produce 4.706 x 12 = 56.47mols of CO2, which is 2.485kg of CO2, which is around 1360litres of CO2 gas at 20degC.

Anyway, long story short, burning 1 litre of kerosene will produce around 1.1 litres of liquid water.

 

[not done it yet]

Which got me thinking...

Kerosene a.k.a. paraffin, is a mixture of hydrocarbons. Although it is not a pure single substance, we could, for the purposes of argument, consider an average formula to be something in the region of C12H26 (see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerosene ).

The burning of kerosene consumes oxygen (O2) and results in the production of carbon dioxide (CO2) and water (H2O), according to an equation that would be something like:

C12H26 + 18.5O2 = 12CO2 + 13H2O

What this tells us is that burning 1mol of kerosene produces 13mols of H2O, plus 12mols of CO2. (1 mol of a substance is contained in the molecular weight of that substance in grams)

The molecular weights are as follows:

Kerosene average MW = 170 (so 170g of kerosene would contain 1mol of the substance)
Water MW = 18
CO2 MW = 44

The density of kerosene is around 0.8g/ml, so 1 litre of kerosene = 800g, which equates to 800 / 170 = 4.706mols

The amount of water produced by burning 1 litre of kerosene will be 4.706 x 13 = 61.2 mols of water, which weighs 61.2 x 18 = 1102g i.e. 1.1 litres of liquid water but, since this will be water vapour (i.e. a gas) it will be around 1475 litres of water vapour at 20degC (since 1 mol of a gas occupies 24.1 litres at normal temp and pressure; see https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/stp-standard-ntp-normal-air-d_772.html). i.e. burning 1 litre of kerosene will release around 1475 litres of water vapour at room temp.

Burning that 1litre of kerosene will also produce 4.706 x 12 = 56.47mols of CO2, which is 2.485kg of CO2, which is around 1360litres of CO2 gas at 20degC.

Anyway, long story short, burning 1 litre of kerosene will produce around 1.1 litres of liquid water.

Just like I wrote in my earlier post (#19) back on page 1.

 

[DAPPH]

What about a gas cooker?
And if you are burning a ventilated heater it is still drawing in fresh air from outside.

A gas cooker is not intended as an unvented space heater though some people do use them as such I wonder ho many people who practice it have CO2 monitor in the same room ?


When we had North Sea gas installed in our military quarter in 1974 they cut a 9 x 9 inch right angle triangle hole in the lower corner of our lounge window & fitted in a fixed louvre vent over the hole .... directly opposite the newly installed gas fire with back boiler . It was like sitting in front of a blast freezer air jet due to the straight through airflow
They cut the kitchen window in the same manner before fitting a brand new gas cooker .

 

[fizzy]

Which got me thinking...

Kerosene a.k.a. paraffin, is a mixture of hydrocarbons. Although it is not a pure single substance, we could, for the purposes of argument, consider an average formula to be something in the region of C12H26 (see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerosene ).

The burning of kerosene consumes oxygen (O2) and results in the production of carbon dioxide (CO2) and water (H2O), according to an equation that would be something like:

C12H26 + 18.5O2 = 12CO2 + 13H2O

What this tells us is that burning 1mol of kerosene produces 13mols of H2O, plus 12mols of CO2. (1 mol of a substance is contained in the molecular weight of that substance in grams)

The molecular weights are as follows:

Kerosene average MW = 170 (so 170g of kerosene would contain 1mol of the substance)
Water MW = 18
CO2 MW = 44

The density of kerosene is around 0.8g/ml, so 1 litre of kerosene = 800g, which equates to 800 / 170 = 4.706mols

The amount of water produced by burning 1 litre of kerosene will be 4.706 x 13 = 61.2 mols of water, which weighs 61.2 x 18 = 1102g i.e. 1.1 litres of liquid water but, since this will be water vapour (i.e. a gas) it will be around 1475 litres of water vapour at 20degC (since 1 mol of a gas occupies 24.1 litres at normal temp and pressure; see https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/stp-standard-ntp-normal-air-d_772.html). i.e. burning 1 litre of kerosene will release around 1475 litres of water vapour at room temp.

Burning that 1litre of kerosene will also produce 4.706 x 12 = 56.47mols of CO2, which is 2.485kg of CO2, which is around 1360litres of CO2 gas at 20degC.

Anyway, long story short, burning 1 litre of kerosene will produce around 1.1 litres of liquid water.

Never get any condensation from mine. Even in the depths of winter. One advantage though is you don't get dry eyes or throat unlike with electric heating.

 

[julianf]

We lived in a rented place for a while. All there were were night storage heaters.

I purchased a modern, high efficiency, external condensing oil boiler (off ebay, used) and sat it in the yard outside.
I fuelled it from a boat fuel tank, and picked up as many free radiators as i could from the local "freecycle".

Because i couldn't chop holes in the place, the only entrance point to the dwelling that i could use was the letter box! I used 3/4" car coolant hose and ran it up, into an inverted U of some black iron fittings that hung in the letter box - the only door into the dwelling.

It was crazy, but i cant live in a cold environment.


6 months later, when we moved out, i sold the oil boiler on eBay for approximately double what id paid for it. Which was nice.


Apart from the unbunded fuel tank (i don't know if there is an exemption for tiny tanks - it was only 30ltrs) the install would have probably just about met building control regulations. By the letter, even if not in the spirit of the document! : )

 

[jerrytug]

I wouodn't use one

I think the biggest problem with this energy crisis is people are going to try and find different ways to heat the home, I can see lives being lost

Probably right unfortunately; they are not to blame, it is what it is, but there are generations of younger people alive with no knowledge or hands-on experience of physically burning solids and liquids to keep warm, unless it is all automatic, controlled and regulated by 'experts'.

 

[slim_boy_fat]

...into an inverted U of some black iron fittings that hung in the letter box - the only door into the dwelling.

How did the Postie manage?

 

[not done it yet]

A gas cooker is not intended as an unvented space heater though some people do use them as such I wonder ho many people who practice it have CO2 monitor in the same room ?


When we had North Sea gas installed in our military quarter in 1974 they cut a 9 x 9 inch right angle triangle hole in the lower corner of our lounge window & fitted in a fixed louvre vent over the hole .... directly opposite the newly installed gas fire with back boiler . It was like sitting in front of a blast freezer air jet due to the straight through airflow
They cut the kitchen window in the same manner before fitting a brand new gas cooker .

CO (carbon monoxide) will kill you much more effectively, than carbon dioxide, in this scenario!

 

[DAPPH]

CO (carbon monoxide) will kill you much more effectively, than carbon dioxide, in this scenario!

Oops ...Typo on my part , I've just checked .......ours are CO detectors .

 

[Kayos]

What about a gas cooker?
And if you are burning a ventilated heater it is still drawing in fresh air from outside.

Gas cooker needs minimum room size plus direct to outside ventilation, depending on room size, plus they are very clean burning

Flueless gas fire needs fixed ventilation, minimum room volume, they are low heat input (1kw-ish) and have a catalytic converter plus an atmospheric sensing device to mechanically shut off the gas should a fault occur.

Both produce zero or close to zero CO when a room measurement is made (only valid if you have the ticket though)

Having said all that, I wouldn't have a fluless gas fire, the 100cm2 vent (minimum) plus the low heat input means they are pretty pointless

 

[fizzy]

Gas cooker needs minimum room size plus direct to outside ventilation, depending on room size, plus they are very clean burning

Flueless gas fire needs fixed ventilation, minimum room volume, they are low heat input (1kw-ish) and have a catalytic converter plus an atmospheric sensing device to mechanically shut off the gas should a fault occur.

Both produce zero or close to zero CO when a room measurement is made (only valid if you have the ticket though)

Having said all that, I wouldn't have a fluless gas fire, the 100cm2 vent (minimum) plus the low heat input means they are pretty pointless

These inverter heaters burn much cleaner than a portable gas fire. They make me quite ill in a short time. Even the catalytic ones.

 

[Kayos]

These inverter heaters burn much cleaner than a portable gas fire. They make me quite ill in a short time. Even the catalytic ones.

I am (was, not sure if it's expired) qualified to fit warm air units. Could not be in a house for more than a few minutes without getting a headache when they ran. The blown air is completely separate from the combustion as well

 

[Reman]

Happy (Belatedly) new year everyone....... From what you're all saying, I'm lucky I'm not dead ! We had a house full of paraffin heaters when I was growing up !

Here's what I now have......

I haven't had either of these ones long, but there's been many others before them. Oh and before anyone mentions it, the wetness on the base of the Aladdin blue flame 16 (The black one) is just condensation. I was in the sub zero temperature garage just before brought it back in and took this photo, so the cold thermal mass of that full tank sucked every drop of water out of the air that it could. Luckily the tank was brimmed when I put it in there, so there was very little air space inside for condensation to form in it.

If anyone's wondering, the green and.... erm.... "Rust" coloured one is my cute little "Valor Minor 64 boiling stove". I HAVE since de-rusted and repainted the chimney on that one though...... Gimme a minute, I'll see if I have a picture........

There. I'm quite pleased with how that came out. I even painted inside the chimney because I wanted to see how the "Not in direct flame" 800'C max paint would cope..... So far, it's doing surprisingly well.

Anyway. On the subject of condensation.
Old paraffin heaters DO kick it out, but this house is quite a damp place in winter (Wet coats hanging up by both the front AND back doors, plus two dogs going outside every 5 minutes to see how wet and slushy they can get before coming back in to "Redistribute" it everywhere), so I've got a couple of dehumidifiers running quite a lot anyway. I'd say that in 24 hours the Aladdin must kick out less moisture than a medium sized wet Labrador does in an hour while she's laying in front of the thing to warm herself up. I don't really notice having to empty the dehumidifies any more often with the paraffin heaters going as without though (It's around 6 to 10L a day at this time of year..... And yes, The house DOES have a roof, yeh cheeky so and so's !!! ), but I have noticed that the patio doors are more likely to be misted with condensation if the Aladdin is going at that end of the kitchen. Is it directly because of the heater? Or is it just from getting the wet coats and welly's down there warmer? The jury's still out on that one.
Apparently modern paraffin heaters DO produce less condensation, but I've got no idea how they're supposed to do that..... Could something in there be putting enough energy into the water to split it into hydrogen and oxygen (Very doubtful, but the only idea that springs to mind).

CO and CO2. These CAN be a problem in modern houses. These days, houses are built to have minimal drafts. Some new ones don't even seem to have any air bricks anymore. Paraffin heaters in those aren't really a good idea unless you crack open a couple of windows to let the nasties out. But unfortuanatly, heat's a fickle servant, and it'll also makes a bolt for these open windows. So you need a more powerful heater to compensate for the lost heat, but that uses more fuel and produces more fuzzy head and fall down gases, so you need to crack the windows even more........ [Repeat ad infinitum].
Heat loss Vs CO/CO2 is a bit of a balancing act. If you have a few CO and CO2 alarms with concentration readouts on them you can "Calibrate" how much the windows need to be open. You'll still have elevated levels in the area you're heating, but as long as CO stays below 8 or 9ppm you should be fine to be in there 24/7. Slightly higher levels can be tolerated for hours at a time before some people might start feeling a bit grotty, but being in those higher levels constantly for days can have an accumulative effect, so it's best just to keep the levels down. Oh, and "cracking a window" isn't an exact science. Sometimes, If the wind picks up, dies down, or starts coming from a different direction, so the windows either don't need opening as much, or sometimes they'll need to be opened a bit more.

I mentioned CO and CO2 alarms. You want at least one of each. CO alarms are everywhere, but CO2 alarms are a bit more rare (And a bit more expensive), so check what you're buying/have carefully. Don't go looking for a single combined CO/CO2 meter as those "Multifunction, All in one, air quality monitoring systems" are stupidly expensive for what they do, and pretty pointless. CO is just a little lighter than air, while CO2 is heavier, so the gases accumulate in different places. The sensor elements also have a finite lifespan to them, so while a good CO2 sensor can last up to 20 years, you'd be pushing your luck at 7 years for a CO sensor, so the CO part of a combined unit will dictate the overall life of the whole thing.
I've read that due to air currents and the boundary layers of hot air above paraffin heaters its best to have CO meters in line with the top of the door frame, and the CO2 meter lower at about waist height, But do your own research. It's your safety after all. I actually tend to put the CO2 alarm a lot closer to the floor in the room where the heater goes, at about a foot up the wall in a relatively draft free area...... It's a heavy gas, and I'm paranoid about the wellbeing of the dogs. If you move the heater to another room, move the meters/alarms too........ Big blobs of Blu-tack on flat vent free sections on the back of the meters is your friend here.

My home can be drafty as a church hall, so even with the little Valor Minor 64 going full beans the CO level only get's up to 5 or 6ppm, and the CO2 barely changes, this is even with all the windows closed. The Aladdin on the other hand brings it up to around a stable 25ish ppm within an hour if I try the same trick with that. This isn't an "Oh s***, we're all gonna die" concentration, but it's not really good for you long term, so I'll crack the living room and bathroom windows open 2" each, and that creates enough airflow to keep the CO in single digits. The CO2 again, doesn't seem to get anywhere near dangerous levels with the Aladdin going (A reading of up to 1,000ppm of Co2 isn't really a problem. Anything below 700ppm is apparently really good for an indoor space with people in it. Over 1400ppm is when you should start to think about opening some windows, but in my experience, with a paraffin heater running flat out, you'd probably already have had to open windows before that point to shut the CO alarm up). Personally, I check the meters significantly more often than I really need to, partly because a sleeping dog can look concerningly like an unconscious dog, but mostly because I've got a few medical problems that have symptoms alarmingly similar to those of CO poisoning, so I'll be sitting there feeling dizzy, nauseous, and due to the painkillers, a little mentally fuzzy around the edges, thinking "Is this just my normal ****** health? Or has something unexpectantly been going sideways with the heaters?............ I'll just look at the meters........ Nope it's just my body reminding me that it's still borked"......... Reassuring AND disheartening all in one easy to do action.

Sourcing paraffin...... The cheapest good quality stuff I can find these days is from Rye Oils Ltd over in East Sussex. They sell 20L plastic barrels for 46 quid (delivered) on there eBay shop. They also have their own online shop where the price is the same (Free shipping also there too). The stuff burns cleanly, and after the initial 5 minute warm up, it doesn't smell at all. the biggest issue with their paraffin is getting it out of the 20L barrel. I got a cheap plastic "Cap with a tap" off Amazon, and although I don't trust it enough to leave the barrel on it's side with this fitted, it does make refilling the heaters tanks a quicker and cleaner job than using a syphon tube and/or a pump. It also has the air vent in the bottom of the nosel, so when the barrel stops glugging the heaters tank is full. The "Bartoline" branded paraffin that places like B&Q sell is OK(Ish), but it works out at closer to £60 per 20L, only comes in 4L plastic cans, and it gives off a slight paraffin smell all the time the heaters are lit. Whatever makes that smell get's into the wick to, and it took 2 refills of the Valor's tank with the Rye oil stuff before that smell went away again. I also noticed that it produces slightly more CO. With both heaters running I needed to have the windows open a bit more just to keep the levels below 15ppm.

I originally got these heaters purely in case we DO get the rolling blackouts that the government were priming us to expect this winter, but with gas prices like they are at the minute, I've found myself lighting one or both of these for a few hours rather than turning the gas heating on. They may still be more expensive to run than the central heating, but I can easily heat JUST the room I'm in, and I can work out in real time what they're costing to run (And modulate my usage accordingly)......... Plus, there's something distinctly manly about boiling the water for your morning coffee in a whistling kettle on an open flame stove (Hell, If the things lit, why not? ).

I'm sure there was something else I was going to mention, but it escapes me now (Painkillers. Fuzzy head, etc). I think this post's got long enough anyway, so I'll end it here and add another comment if I remember what other thing occurred to me to mention while reading through the previous posts.

 

[fizzy]

My inverter kerosene heater is still doing well chucking out 4.6kw/h at a quarter the price of electric.
And even after 4 years running on household kerosene it hasn't killed me yet
CO alarms a must of course although it does have CO2 and CO sensors built in.

 

[JohnH]

I'm still alive too!!

Been using the fizzy quite a bit due to the inclement weather. Been -8c outside the garage and 0c inside. Fire up the fizzy and interior temp up to 8-10c within half hour or so. Works a treat.

Another thing I like about the fizzy is, that you can move it around the place. I quite often need to rearrange my workspace as I work on different projects. I have a pit in the garage which is covered with 3x2' steel drain covers and this area is usually the open area with a car or whatever parked on the other side of the garage, but every so often I use the pit, so stuff has to be moved around and this is one of the benefits of having a fizzy, you just pick it up using its inbuilt handles and move it. Simples!

A couple of minor grumbles, the wiring lead is too short. 5-6 feet so I always need an extension. The lcd display is not illuminated so its difficult to set temperatures without a torch. The fuel level display is a window on the side of the removable fuel tank and again its sometimes difficult to see it without a torch.

All in all, very happy with the fizzy.

 

[Gareth J]

I do that. A lot is down to the design of the wood burners. They should have a bigger lip at the top I reckon.

It might be to do with your location and the draw of your chimney. I recall you live in a sheltered Welsh valley? Here, on top of a hill, when it's windy, you have to prize the woodburner door open with a crowbar (slight exaggeration). Neighbours in valleys struggle to light fires and maintain draught, irrelevant of burner style. Insulating the flue liner might help if you haven't already.

 

[Porkypine]

We had the old Valor paraffin heaters when I was a kid, my first A/E visit was when I burned my hand on the top of one!
Still got one of the old "fancy" looking black valor heaters, tho just kept as decoration/old time's sake really. I did try running it on red diesel once as I had a load for nowt, used it in some oil lamps too, unfortunately it was a bit too smelly and smoky...

 

[fizzy]

It might be to do with your location and the draw of your chimney. I recall you live in a sheltered Welsh valley? Here, on top of a hill, when it's windy, you have to prize the woodburner door open with a crowbar (slight exaggeration). Neighbours in valleys struggle to light fires and maintain draught, irrelevant of burner style. Insulating the flue liner might help if you haven't already.

No chimney. Just a big room. I do crack open a window an inch or so.

 

[rcx132]

The "cab heater" type Chinese burners have really gone up in price since the energy/cost of living crises. They use a heat exchange so they don't generate CO2 into the building. Even on diesel they work out much cheaper than leccy heaters, and they are multi fuel so I suspect people are burning other fuels such as used engine oil.