Arc welding 0.8mm sheet steel

[zardoz]

this strange device from Frost is supposed to be able to weld body panels down to 0.7mm / 22 gauge. Has anyone any experience of it ?
Frost Body welding attachment

 

[shenion]

I have seen them advertised here. Seems a bit of a gimmick.

With some 1.6mm 7014 rods and some practice and a decent welder that can go low enough, it is doable.

I did some 0.9mm sheet to 4.75mm steel a few weeks ago using arc and the 7014 rods. Did ok, but did blow a few holes. I need to make up some copper spoons for backing.

Here is a thread when i discovered the 7014 rods.

 

[weldequip]

If it worked so good there would be no market for MIGs. Bit like those carbon-arc "brazing attachments" for arc welders...they work 'in a fashion', but compared to a proper brazing torch/heat source they are pants
weldequip

 

[Paul.]

A well meaning neighbour gave me one of those, I've never tried to use it, I reckoned its one of those "as advertised in back of the Sunday newspaper magazine " type gimmicks, I'll hook it up to a welder over the next couple of days and report back, but my guess is its a waste of time.

 

[shenion]

1mm tubing, 7014 1.6mm rod, DCEP, done vertical down.

Blew big hole in the opposite side trying to do flat. I'd say 1.2mm is about as thin as you would want to work. Did some 1.3mm a while back with no problems.

Edit: More tries:


0.7mm steel, same rod.

Center was trying butt weld flat with a aluminum backer plate. Just too difficult.

Outer welds were done vertical down with no back plate. Blew holes if the rod stuck.

Back side:


Not fun at all to do These are about 5" long welds and took about 6 seconds to do. You have to move real fast, keep the arc length and maintain the line.

Could probably do a vertical butt weld, but would take lots of practice. A copper backing spoon would probably be needed.

Would not try it on a low-end arc. This is 90O CV and a 5-60A range. Probably about 30A.

That gizmo may work with a decent rod. Would only do half cycles, would kinda be like pulsed MIG.

 

[GeorgeB]

If it worked so good there would be no market for MIGs. Bit like those carbon-arc "brazing attachments" for arc welders...they work 'in a fashion', but compared to a proper brazing torch/heat source they are pants
weldequip

You are so sceptical! Luck had it that I came across one of the Kel-Arc gadgets which Zardoz asked about, at a car boot fair last weekend - another bargain at only £5.

Zardoz said: "this strange device from Frost is supposed to be able to weld body panels down to 0.7mm / 22 gauge. Has anyone any experience of it?"

The device I bought is identical. My first impressions are that it works a treat and gets me further towards my goal of being able to use a cheap arc welder to weld thin sheet steel perfectly well. I took some 0.7mm sheet steel, which is a tad thinner than standard car body panels, perhaps.

Without any copper backing or anything, here's what happened when I tried to run a seam using a 6013 rod without the Kel-Arc:

And here's my attempt at spot or tack welds using the same arc settings but without the Kel-Arc:

The height of the spot /tack welds is quite low, which I hope is desirable.

Next I connected up the Kel-Arc, just to see if it even worked. This is my very first attempt with it, and I think it bodes well for the future. I wasn't trying to get a straight line and I'm sure I'll be able to avoid any gaps once I get a bit more used to it. First attempt:

I like the narrow width and low height, as compared to the relatively large hump of a MIG weld, from images I've seen here. Penetration seems perfectly adequate to me, although I'm no expert. Here's the reverse side:

In summary, this little device strikes me as brilliant. Even if my first attempt is not perfect, I see the cup as half full, rather than half empty. I look forward to using it to join two lengths of the 0.7mm sheet.

 

[Drains]

I look forward to using it to join two lengths of the 0.7mm sheet.

Looking forward to seeing you try George!

 

[Welderpaul]

Naaahhhhhh..!

 

[snowcat]

mhhhhhh carbon arc, handy for the suntan, crap at joining metal tho......

 

[GeorgeB]

mhhhhhh carbon arc, handy for the suntan, crap at joining metal tho......

Who said anything about caron arc? Not me; at least not in this thread. The Kel Arc body welder is based on the well-established principle of pulsed welding. I understand that pulsed welding is used in top-end gear like factory robots but the inventors of the Kel Arc appear to have done DIYers and any others who give it a chance, a favour by using the same principle in a very affordable welding gun. It's early days for me using the Kel Arc but I remain optimistic.

 

[Paul.]

Its not really pulsed welding George, the electrode vibrates back and forth very quickly, so opens and closes the arc gap, its actually more like a method known as broken arc technique, where you break the arc and immediately restart it, pulsed welding is controlled electronically, the welding current is pulsed at an operator adjustable frequency, but always maintaining a background current.

 

[shenion]

The Kel Arc is nothing like pulsed MIG sets. Yes, it is pulsed but no smarts. Not even as advanced as the '70s pulsed setups.

 

[Sparkey]

Naaahhhhhh..!

 

[GeorgeB]

Its not really pulsed welding George, the electrode vibrates back and forth very quickly, so opens and closes the arc gap, its actually more like a method known as broken arc technique, where you break the arc and immediately restart it, pulsed welding is controlled electronically, the welding current is pulsed at an operator adjustable frequency, but always maintaining a background current.

If this web site had a 'thanks' button for helpful posts, I'd push it now! I'm sure you're right. All I know, is that it seems to work! Thanks also to Shenion. If this device is breaking the current several times a second, I wonder how it's done. You'd think the switch 'contacts' would burn out in no time at all. I obviously hope that doesn't happen and assume the inventors must have found a way around any premature burn-out. The main pulsing component is a coil and it also has a diode which they say serves to reduce current even further.

The Kel-Arc body welder was apparently designed by two British chaps in the mid-80s. I think the units sold by Eastwood (USA), Frost (UK) and on eBay are all the same. Comprehensive details can be found here on the US patent filing. It looks to me like a serious piece of kit - not a toy town gimmick at all:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...f=G&l=50&d=PTXT&S1=699471&OS=699471&RS=699471

 

[Archie]

Come on now, Georgie. If it was a serious bit of kit, we'd all be using them, wouldn't we?! The fact is that MIGs and TIGs provide far better results far more easily. Sure, arc welding has it's place, but 0.7mm sheet is never going to be it.

 

[malcolm]

It does sound like an interesting device. Could you post some photos?

Sounds like the tip moves in and out starting and breaking the arc. What is the tip made from? Do you use it like a TIG or like an arc? Also does it only work on AC?

 

[Archie]

I get the impression it's just a rod holder with an electromagnet and a spring. I assume it relies on the AC output of the welder to drive the electromagnet back and forth so 'pulsing' the rod.

 

[GeorgeB]

It does sound like an interesting device. Could you post some photos? Sounds like the tip moves in and out starting and breaking the arc. What is the tip made from? Do you use it like a TIG or like an arc? Also does it only work on AC?

Will do, hopefully together with photos of my soon-to-be-tackled attempt to join two pieces of 0.7mm steel sheet together with the arc welder.

If you look at the patent info, I think the device may comprise of two coils, so perhaps there's no switch contacts as such, potentially to burn out. However they do it, it works.

It's just like a variation on an arc welding torch/holder. The tip is effectively my standard 6013 1.6mm ALDI welding rod. It only works on AC for pulsed type welding but it says you can also use it with car batteries on DC in non-pulse mode. So, yes, it's used just like an arc welder, and not like a TIG.

 

[snowcat]

It may offer some benefits, one of the potential problems seam to be a lack of background current so the arc is going to be lost, if you need a frequency thats long enouth to weld thin materials..... re ignition will also be a problem on a low OCV, something like a lo-hi rod would be fairly much imposible......

Iv never seen one on sale, so i remain skeptical about the quality of work that could be achieved with one, there was quite a lot of "stop gaps" developed for the arc, until, TIG and MIG became in budget to the masses.....

 

[Drains]

Here, George - is this your bit of kit?