Arc welding in the US vs. the UK

[RonHopeful]

I've watched loads of You Tube videos on arc welding over the last few month. I think they were all American. They say things like "go down to your local hardware store and pick up a few cartons of different types of electrode to experiment with". One of them, Chucke2009 is pretty dismissive of 6013 - saying they're not much good for anything except learning the basics.
I thought it would be interesting to try some 6011, for example. But they only seem to be available from the US, with postage costs of about £30.
Also, several people have told me to get some decent quality 6013 electrodes, such as Murex, or Bohler, rather than the Super6 I'm using. But even they don't seem to be generally available - I'd certainly need to order them online.
So, is arc welding less common here than in the States for some reason?

 

[piman]

Hello Ron,

I've used nothing else but 6013 for the general fabrication jobs that I do and don't have a problem with them. I buy my rods from a welding supplier 20 miles away from where I live. There are a great many other quality manufacturers other than the two you mention. I couldn't comment on whether there is more arc welding in America but it is very common here and a better bet than using a budget MIG for thicker steel.

Alec

 

[TechnicAl]

We use 6013 as the general purpose type. In the US they use 6010 mostly (6011 are AC/DC). We use 6010 mostly for pipe welding.

I dont think there is a technical reason its just tradition

 

[Kent]

I have a feeling that the "tradition" Al talks of influences the quality of their 6013 rods as a spin off perpetuating the dislike of 6013 (ie they only tend to get them as the economy option in their stores ie cheap junk). Rods with poorly centred flux coatings etc. WP's are often copied without a great deal of thought or knowledge by some / many engineers so its easy for things to propagate and proliferate.

Badly / cheaply made rods favour one side often part way through a weld and that's what I hear levelled as 6013 rods from the Americans (its got nothing to do with the 6013 spec though just quality of manufacture)

Just try buying the low Hy 7018 at your hardware store here Their "hardware" stores are also quite different I have a local "welding supplies" firm that wont even know what your asking for if you say "a box of 3.2 7018 please" (needless to say I don't use them much).

 

[RonHopeful]

Thanks all. It still seems strange. One of the videos I watched was by a guy called Steve Bleile. He went into detail about how rods can be divided into two categories - 6010 and 6011 in the 'Fast freeze' category and 6013, 7018 and 7024 in the 'Filler category'. The reason I wanted to try 6011 was that, according to the video, the weld pool is much easier to see. Getting a clear view of the pool and what it's doing is one of the many issues I have with my welding .

I see that my 'local' welding supplier now carries Nikko RD 260 electrodes in both 6013 and 7018 - instead of the Super6 they've had recently. Are they worth a try - or should I go further afield?

 

[HughF]

A clear view of the pool is easiest with a 6010/6011 or a 7016/7018 electrode. I'm of the camp that learnt on 6013 then moved over to the other rods. It really is much easier to weld with a 7016 than a 6013 because of the definition between the pool and the slag. The super6 6010's on ebay appear to actually be 6011's and for the price are a bargain, they'll run on AC too.

6013's often require probably close to a 45 degree drag angle in order to get the slag pushed back if you don't have a lot of arc force.

I suggest you get some of those and have a go.

 

[Kent]

Thanks all. It still seems strange. One of the videos I watched was by a guy called Steve Bleile. He went into detail about how rods can be divided into two categories - 6010 and 6011 in the 'Fast freeze' category and 6013, 7018 and 7024 in the 'Filler category'. The reason I wanted to try 6011 was that, according to the video, the weld pool is much easier to see. Getting a clear view of the pool and what it's doing is one of the many issues I have with my welding .

I see that my 'local' welding supplier now carries Nikko RD 260 electrodes in both 6013 and 7018 - instead of the Super6 they've had recently. Are they worth a try - or should I go further afield?

I doubt a change of rod will help if you cant see the pool clearly. Nobody could weld right with any rod without a good view of what they are doing. An eye test, clean new lens cover, lighter shade lens and a shorter arc are all more likely to help.
I don't rate Super 6 as great rods but I do use them in a 6013 at times they are OK in the flat and get the job done, in fact they are not a bad beginners rod as 1. they are very easy to light up 2. they are cheap
Sometimes when you have an eye test you find you have been guessing rather than seeing, especially if your over 40

 

[TechnicAl]

Thanks all. It still seems strange. One of the videos I watched was by a guy called Steve Bleile. He went into detail about how rods can be divided into two categories - 6010 and 6011 in the 'Fast freeze' category and 6013, 7018 and 7024 in the 'Filler category'. The reason I wanted to try 6011 was that, according to the video, the weld pool is much easier to see. Getting a clear view of the pool and what it's doing is one of the many issues I have with my welding .

I see that my 'local' welding supplier now carries Nikko RD 260 electrodes in both 6013 and 7018 - instead of the Super6 they've had recently. Are they worth a try - or should I go further afield?

Nikko............never heard of them so I googled it.......Indonesia
Ive no idea if they are any good or not but I assume whoever is importing them isnt doing it because they are better than you can buy already.

If youve never tried a 6010 you wont know either.......

Just a word of warning.......6010 and 6011 (despite the AC/DC) run best on DC.........Inverters and TIG sets are too sophisticated....some wont even run 6010s

 

[MoreWellie]

An eye test

if you do need glasses and have vari focal or bi focal glasses then do yourself a favour and get a cheap pair of single vision reading glasses. I really struggled to see what I was welding until I did

it is just impossible to look through the bottom of the glasses lens AND look at the job when you have a welding helmet on

 

[Wendelspanswick]

if you do need glasses and have vari focal or bi focal glasses then do yourself a favour and get a cheap pair of single vision reading glasses. I really struggled to see what I was welding until I did

it is just impossible to look through the bottom of the glasses lens AND look at the job when you have a welding helmet on

A cheater lens is only a couple of quid and will fit inside your mask, various diopters in 0.25 increments.

 

[MoreWellie]

A cheater lens

I need my vision correcting as I am short sighted and have astigmatism. A cheater lens would make things larger but because I am looking through the wrong part of the lens in my glasses the larger image would still not be sharp. The correctly prescribed single vision close up glasses means I can focus properly without lifting my head. Still a pain as when I take the helmet off I have to peer around to find the next tool that I want as anything further than arms length is progressively more out of focus. On the plus side the welding glasses are great when working on the computer as well

 

[PTvor]

I thought it would be interesting to try some 6011, for example. But they only seem to be available from the US, with postage costs of about £30.

Look on ebay uk. There are also welding suppliers who stock them, such as Rapid. Typically, you won't walk into a welding supply place in the UK and find them in stock. For some reason, here, they're mainly regarded as a specialist rod for outside pipework.

One thing you should be aware of is that celluosic rods need a high OCV (70ish plus) and a particular current characteristic to run properly, so either an inverter with cellulose capability or a transformer based welder that has a high voltage range, such as an oil cooled Oxford. You probably won't do much with them with a buzz box or a normal inverter. Most 7018s won't run properly on a buzz box because of the OCV, but are happy enough on inverters.

Also, several people have told me to get some decent quality 6013 electrodes, such as Murex, or Bohler, rather than the Super6 I'm using. But even they don't seem to be generally available - I'd certainly need to order them online.
So, is arc welding less common here than in the States for some reason?

It's pot luck as to what sort of stock your local welding suppliers hold and how reasonably priced they are. My local one only does Nexus (cheap but I'm not keen on them) and Murex brands like Satinex and Zodian at fairly hefty prices. They say they can order whatever you want. They reckon most of their consumables business is MIG wire these days. I've tended to order rods when I've been ordering other stuff or dropped in and bought them when my travels have taken me past somewhere which stocked what I wanted at a reasonable price. Otherwise the £6 or so postage on top of the order is quite a lot proportionately.

I can't comment on the Nikko rods and I haven't seen much comment on here on them. However, 5kg of rods you don't get on with or have no faith in, takes a lot of getting through.

I don't know about the USA, but I've got the impression, walking round DIY sheds and builder's merchants etc in France, that they usually have arc welders and rods (often stainless, cast iron and aluminium rods in small packets), and that arc welding is much more popular there. They seem to go for 6013 rather than anything else for mild steel.

 

[Liquid Metal]

Personally have no idea why Americans rubbish 6013s.....

have personally, (and worked with/around others who have) welded plenty of slip on pipe flanges, fuel/chemical storage tanks, pipe butts, aswell as other bits and pieces that were far from "just slap it together, it'll be fine" jobs. All welded with Vodex, or Fincord M's. Not to mention all the ship hulls of old, welded with Vodex. (sure they were developed in the shipyards, although may be wrong)

On the other hand though.....
Most of the structural work I've done before now, Some of it quite heavy stuff too, ie 600mm sized Universal columns 30 odd mm thick fillet welded to an 80-90mm thick base plate, for railway steelwork, road bridges, etc.......
when specified if was to be Stick welded, was usually 7016 root, 7018 fill and cap. Didn't matter if it was an 8mm fillet or a 30mm fillet.

Not a huge amount of it was actually stick though, most of the steelwork was all mig, or mig root, flux core fill n cap, and Americans and plenty of others too, loooove to rubbish mig welding!!!!!

But what do i know, Im not the engineer, Im just the welder lmao

 

[Bill Edwards]

I started out using 6013 rods. Good quality ones can make quite a difference, it's been a while but I remember Murex 'white box' rods well. Pheonix aren't bad.

Now though I avoid them in favor of 7016/8. I've just got some 6011 rods (sold as 6010, but they seem to be 6011), the price seems fair. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5KG-Super...996?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3cf830422c

I asked at the local welding supplies shop today for some 6010 rods - no chance. Not even any 4mm 7018, though they had 3.2 and 2.5.
Blank looks seem to be the thing when asking for anything other than 6013, dissimilar or hardfacing.

Nikko............never heard of them so I googled it.......Indonesia
Ive no idea if they are any good or not but I assume whoever is importing them isnt doing it because they are better than you can buy already.

Nikko - I've bought a Vac Pac of 4mm which I should be trying out soon. They say made in Indonesia, and claim to be Lloyds approved - I checked, and they are.
Does this mean much, or does it simply mean they meet some basic standard regarding weld quality but may be unpleasant to use?

 

[TechnicAl]

Nikko - I've bought a Vac Pac of 4mm which I should be trying out soon. They say made in Indonesia, and claim to be Lloyds approved - I checked, and they are.
Does this mean much, or does it simply mean they meet some basic standard regarding weld quality but may be unpleasant to use?

Well it does mean that they have been tested to the stated standard under the supervision of an independent witness and they have an adequate quality system in place. I assume you have checked the LRS online data base. If so there will be a grade stated, probably grade 1,2 or 3 or 1Y,2Y,3Y. These represent the strength and ductility levels. Unfortunately none of these "approvals" differentiate between rods that burn nicely and those that dont.

 

[Kent]

Bill Said

" I asked at the local welding supplies shop today for some 6010 rods - no chance. Not even any 4mm 7018, though they had 3.2 and 2.5.
Blank looks seem to be the thing when asking for anything other than 6013, dissimilar or hardfacing."

Now exactly why anyone might stock 2.5mm 7018 and not 4.0mm tells the whole story! They simply aint got a clue Not unreasonable unless the fool behind the desk claim to be a Welder like I get at one supposedly proper suppliers (the guy actually only understands stock codes) I wanted some 3.2 mm 6013 and he said "never heard of those we don't stock them, tell me what your welding" He must have a little book on his shelves at the back! So as I was in a push I did tell him when he brought me what I wanted I showed him what he had just brought me written clearly on the box

Thing is when I was a teenager I was taught stick and Oxy / fuel first and I know for a fact that few training providers for apprentices do very much at all in these areas now. As a result look at pay scales MMA welding pay rates have risen against MIG and TIG less supply than demand requires you see. Circa 87-91 a very different situation was in place TIG was very much required over anything else (if the shop had one, many didn't). Farm lads that can do a bit are also pretty much MIG only were their Dads and Grandad's were often half way decent stick welders ( something that is far more suited to outside tasks around the farm) You see its what they teach now

 

[Bill Edwards]

Well it does mean that they have been tested to the stated standard under the supervision of an independent witness and they have an adequate quality system in place. I assume you have checked the LRS online data base. If so there will be a grade stated, probably grade 1,2 or 3 or 1Y,2Y,3Y. These represent the strength and ductility levels. Unfortunately none of these "approvals" differentiate between rods that burn nicely and those that dont.

Yep, the ones I have are Nikko Steel RD-718. Grade and technique - 3yM. Low Hydrogen H15
The only difference between those and some Filarc I have are that the Filarc are down to H5.

 

[Kent]

Though north east of Scotland Kent, seemingly MMA and MIG/MAG welders were getting laid off, but TIG guys were still in demand...heard a few boys get calls asking if they were welder, asked what process, then told "sorry we're only needing TIG welders" and more than one place making the calls also....

Its all supply and demand at the time, that has got to end up being regional. If I take you back to the late 80s we had MMA lads used to working on site taking up jobs as production MIG welders (certainly in the NW there seems a real demand for their services now and few are left, hence prices / pay are up) In Scotland I suppose there are more lads off the Rigs and such available to do such work. At the same time as above the catering industry had to loose a lot of wood for new hygiene rules and go stainless, work for TIG boomed (few were trained!) Remember at this time not all shop had a TIG plant ( it was not uncommon for guys from other firms to borrow ours for a few hours) and BNFL Selafield were also subbing out. Pay rocketed, poaching staff was rife as were the cowboys! Now looking the only TIG area you can make reasonable money over other processes here is in Aerospace. Most general shops ask for MIG and TIG though but because we now have HR depts. there are some funny spellings and requests

 

[Rrunnach]

Thing is when I was a teenager I was taught stick and Oxy / fuel first and I know for a fact that few training providers for apprentices do very much at all in these areas now.

I deliver MMA-O&A-MIG/MAG & TIG. So, fortunately some apprentices benefit from sound training. How long this continues, I don't know, this is because of continuing funding cuts!!
Oh, MIG includes welding al/al, too.

 

[premmington]

Bill Said

" I asked at the local welding supplies shop today for some 6010 rods - no chance. Not even any 4mm 7018, though they had 3.2 and 2.5.
Blank looks seem to be the thing when asking for anything other than 6013, dissimilar or hardfacing."

Now exactly why anyone might stock 2.5mm 7018 and not 4.0mm tells the whole story! They simply aint got a clue Not unreasonable unless the fool behind the desk claim to be a Welder like I get at one supposedly proper suppliers (the guy actually only understands stock codes) I wanted some 3.2 mm 6013 and he said "never heard of those we don't stock them, tell me what your welding" He must have a little book on his shelves at the back! So as I was in a push I did tell him when he brought me what I wanted I showed him what he had just brought me written clearly on the box

Thing is when I was a teenager I was taught stick and Oxy / fuel first and I know for a fact that few training providers for apprentices do very much at all in these areas now. As a result look at pay scales MMA welding pay rates have risen against MIG and TIG less supply than demand requires you see. Circa 87-91 a very different situation was in place TIG was very much required over anything else (if the shop had one, many didn't). Farm lads that can do a bit are also pretty much MIG only were their Dads and Grandad's were often half way decent stick welders ( something that is far more suited to outside tasks around the farm) You see its what they teach now

Oh... the above is so true!

Out of 12 lads who work for me (automotive repair workshops). All can MIG-TIG weld to a fashion. Only me, aged 50 and my Russian fitter aged 30 can MMA and Oxy-fuel weld.

MMA welding is a good skill to have in the workshop for problem solving!

To be fair to our Russian fitter, his basic engineering skills are far higher than lads who trained in the UK.