Can't beat a new Lorch

[matt1978]

As good as they are i personally still see more of a benefit in automated applications.

We have been doing a lot of energy efficiency surveys lately to see if the customer could benefit from changing from his existing transformer over to an inverter and part of the survey is seeing the idle(non welding) time compared to actual blue light welding time and in many manual applications the non welding time far far outweighs the welding side. So 5-10-15 mins out of day from changing a spool is a drop in the ocean compared to all of the other issues in a general fab shop that stops the welding process.

I think you'd need to be doing 1-2 reels a day in a manual welding application to even begin the discussion on if it's better to swap to bulk paks

 

[TechnicAl]

As good as they are i personally still see more of a benefit in automated applications.

We have been doing a lot of energy efficiency surveys lately to see if the customer could benefit from changing from his existing transformer over to an inverter and part of the survey is seeing the idle(non welding) time compared to actual blue light welding time and in many manual applications the non welding time far far outweighs the welding side. So 5-10-15 mins out of day from changing a spool is a drop in the ocean compared to all of the other issues in a general fab shop that stops the welding process.

I think you'd need to be doing 1-2 reels a day in a manual welding application to even begin the discussion on if it's better to swap to bulk paks

Youre talking cost saving though........changeovers are lost production

 

[matt1978]

yes I hear what your saying, the electrical efficiency is purely cost saving, but my point was when analysing the ratio of welding to non-welding for most general fab shops, the welders spend far far longer not welding in any given day than welding by as much as 80/20. Factoring in, reading drawings, tacking up, positioning jigs, turning material, waiting for the crane etc etc, so in environments such as this, would a bulk pak be so beneficial?

Generally speaking, whatever it is, buying in bulk is usually always cheaper, but not necessarily the most practical nor most cost efficient way forward.

 

[Welderpaul]

As good as they are i personally still see more of a benefit in automated applications.

We have been doing a lot of energy efficiency surveys lately to see if the customer could benefit from changing from his existing transformer over to an inverter and part of the survey is seeing the idle(non welding) time compared to actual blue light welding time and in many manual applications the non welding time far far outweighs the welding side. So 5-10-15 mins out of day from changing a spool is a drop in the ocean compared to all of the other issues in a general fab shop that stops the welding process.

I think you'd need to be doing 1-2 reels a day in a manual welding application to even begin the discussion on if it's better to swap to bulk paks

The biggest issue resulting in 'non weld time' is post weld clean up. Massively reduced with us by the machines we have, but welding dirty sections will always need some degree of cleaning, however well the machine is set and how good the weld processes are. As you say, spool change time is a drop in the ocean compared to this.

It will take me a good 5-8 minutes to change a spool. Take off screen, open machine, take old spool off, pull end of the wire out, get new spool from the store, fit, feed wire through, snip off, close machine, book wire out on sheet, then screen back on. And that's without wandering round to chat to anyone.

 

[Welderpaul]

How does the cost of bulk pack wire, kg for kg, compare with 15kg spools? I guess cheaper to produce/pack but 'artificially' made more expensive?

 

[Welderpaul]

Factoring in, reading drawings, tacking up, positioning jigs, turning material, waiting for the crane etc etc, so in environments such as this, would a bulk pak be so beneficial?

Depends how the shop is set up, our tackers do 90% of that so the welders just weld.

 

[TechnicAl]

yes I hear what your saying, the electrical efficiency is purely cost saving, but my point was when analysing the ratio of welding to non-welding for most general fab shops, the welders spend far far longer not welding in any given day than welding by as much as 80/20. Factoring in, reading drawings, tacking up, positioning jigs, turning material, waiting for the crane etc etc, so in environments such as this, would a bulk pak be so beneficial?

Generally speaking, whatever it is, buying in bulk is usually always cheaper, but not necessarily the most practical nor most cost efficient way forward.

Doing all the "fabrication" work will take the same time whether youre using bulk packs or spools..........but bulk will mean less changes.....a definite difference

Bulk pack wire is usually more expensive. Ive not been involved for a good few years but they cost more to make and one Drum was more expensive than the equivalent number of spools.

Whether bulk suits your production or not depends on your needs..........every one is different

 

[Kent]

Depends how the shop is set up, our tackers do 90% of that so the welders just weld.

You have tackers and welders? Lordy they must cherish a spool change
Best factor in recruitment costs if you switch to drums

Splitting up skills? How does it effect things when one team is short handed? How many good guys walk inside two years?

 

[Robotstar5]

How long does it take to change a 250kg reel? Do you need any special handling equipment and training to use these?

We used to put our 250 & 475kg paks onto purpose made wheeled plates so they could be moved by one person who didn't need an FLT licence.

 

[TechnicAl]

We used to make drums for Nissan that were never ending. You welded the end of the first drum to the start of the next drum and they automatically changed over.

 

[Jim Davey]

EWM did a dual head feeder for a car factory, that had wire from a drum going to one torch, and a standard 15kg roll inside feeding the other. The welding station had an alarm the operator would sound when his 250 kg drum ran dry, he'd pick up the gun fed by the standard spool and carry on welding while a maintenance chap would come and switch out the drum. He could carry on uninterrupted costing the factory no lost production.

 

[Robotstar5]

EWM did a dual head feeder for a car factory, that had wire from a drum going to one torch, and a standard 15kg roll inside feeding the other. The welding station had an alarm the operator would sound when his 250 kg drum ran dry, he'd pick up the gun fed by the standard spool and carry on welding while a maintenance chap would come and switch out the drum. He could carry on uninterrupted costing the factory no lost production.

The welding booths on the tracks at Longbridge had a single power source (NBC) feeding a switchbox then 2 wire feed units & torches, if one failed, the operator just threw the switch and picked up the other torch.

 

[Welderpaul]

You have tackers and welders? Lordy they must cherish a spool change
Best factor in recruitment costs if you switch to drums

Splitting up skills? How does it effect things when one team is short handed? How many good guys walk inside two years?

It's how most fabricators that do structural work are set up. Tackers (or Platers) read the drawings, tack the plates on, then over to the welders who weld up. Platers earn more than welders, so doesn't make commercial sense paying Platers wages when you can pay welders wages.

Nothing difficult to manage - just make sure that the Platers are always well ahead of the welders. If there's a number of beams/columns that take a lot of time tacking together, tack up the easy stuff first so the welders are flooded out. Or, as some of the lads are Plater/welders, have slightly too many Platers on tacking up first, then drop them off to weld. Get a day or so tacking up first whilst the welders are finishing off the last job.

All our Platers are BS9606 welders too, so makes it a bit easier to manage.

My lot are very happy thanks, drums or spools. Paid well, plenty of work, variable work, loads of overtime...never had it so good.

 

[Kent]

Didn't used to be that way when I was about as paye
Drawing. Cut drill. Tack. Weld one guy
Could even sharpen drills and get out and fit some work

 

[Robotstar5]

It's how most fabricators that do structural work are set up. Tackers (or Platers) read the drawings, tack the plates on, then over to the welders who weld up.

In production work, the term tackers was a derogatory term for wanabee welders they were paid less than the proper welders.