Complete beginner

[Semtex]

Hi all, just joined up cos I am sure I will be after a lot of advice.

I'm restoring a Lada Riva estate (Yeah yeah whatever.......I like them)

My main problem is cash, so I have been loaned an arc welder from a neighbour. (Cosmo ark 150) After putting it off for so long, I finally had a go this afternoon.

To be honest, I'm not impressed with the results (practicing on an old lada wing that needed replacing and angle grinded off)

I can post some pics later, but will probably be putting them on my blog later.

I have never done any form of welding before, and if the object of the excercise was to blow holes in the metal I would be doing well.

Bottom line is, have I bitten off more than I can chew, would I be able to (eventually) weld the car with this or am I wasting my time.

I am booked onto an automotive 2 year body and paint course but that starts in September.

Help!!!!!!!

 

[shenion]

It will be real difficult with an arc welder. You need to move fast. Lowering the angle of the rod helps.

Good rods make a big difference. I have some 1.6mm 7014 rods that are much easir to use as they can run at low currents.

 

[madkayaker]

hi there. i know that lada's were built out of spare tank parts following the collapse of communism but they are to thin to be realistic welded with a stick (there is a long going thread saying it is but the poster is trying to prove some kind of point). you would be best to save some cash and get a mig with a 30A MAX low setting (if that makes seance) a lot of the really cheep stuff is to hot for car work

 

[rtbcomp]

Welcome to the forum.

You don't stand a chance of welding bodywork with an arc welder, especially if you're a novice.

Lack of cash aside, realistically you really need a MIG that can go down to 20/25 amps, good quality wire and argon/CO2 mix.

 

[Semtex]

To be honest, I guessed as much, I really need a reealy cheap mig then to get me started. Saving up at the minute is a definate non starter, we are struggling day to day at the moment.............We're dealing with DWP nuff said.

I've got no option but to crack on, but trust me i'm going nowhere near the car until I'm confident that I won't undo all my hard work.

The lada was a freebee, I need something in that sort of price range (maybe streatch to about £50)

Can anyone give me any advice on where to go from here. Am I wasting my time or would it be a usefull slill to learn anyway.
One of the Lada jobs is to replace both front outriggers (Chassis) Would Ark be suitable for that?

Progress on the car so far can be found at http://kernowlada.blogspot.com/
I'll put it in my signature when I can figure out how to set one

 

[shenion]

You can do the chassis with arc. Find similar metal to practice on and also practice doping positional work.

Bodywork with an arc welder will be difficult. I have done it where I can use an aluminum or copper backing plate to prevent blow through. Still you have to do it in small bursts or as a series of tack welds.

As I said, good rods make a difference. 1.6 or 2mm would work best.

MIG will be the easy way and not some real cheap gasless MIG. It might be worth getting it all ready and having someone else weld it.

 

[PTvor]

I think you are diving into this head first. Get some odd bits of steel about the same thickness as the Lada bodywork from your local fabricator or light engineering place and try on that before tackling the car. If you can't succeed on that you won't succeed with car bodywork welding in all sorts of odd positions. Arc is great for steel thicker than 3mm, tricky on 2mm, and getting much harder as you go towards 1.5, it rapidly gets harder as the thickness decreases. Car bodywork is usually less than 1.5mm.

7014 rods are very hard to find in the UK.

Realistically, you can't do this sort of work with an arc, MIG or O/A is needed, and even then you couldn't expect to do it right off the bat with no practice. Not all MIG sets are useful for this kind of work.

 

[Engineer]

If you are short of money and have time on your hands, why not try and find someone who will do the welding work on your car in exchange for you helping them out with something?

 

[keith19]

Engineer's advice is good, particularly if you are in a bit of a hurry to get on with the restoration.
But arc welding is still a good skill to learn, even for it's own sake.
Learning arc as an introduction to welding is quite hard; difficult enough in the classroom, worse on your own. But quite possible, especially through this forum, where you can post your attempts and get good advice.

As posted above, start with 3 - 4 mm metal thickness, so you can see some sort of decent results, instead of blasting through thin metal and getting fed up with it. Just start off laying beads on the thicker metal, getting used to holding the rod so it remains steady and in a straight line. It will stick lots of times, but a quick twist will release it.

Follow the techniques suggested in the arc videos on the forum, practicing them one at a time. Practice joining metals together in different ways. It is very satisfying when it comes out right, and the thicker metal is very forgiving of mistakes. When you feel happy with your results, move down about a mm in metal thickness, and start over again. It won't be so hard because you'll have learned some techniques, but there will be the problem of blowing through occasionally if its less than about 3 mm.

When you get to thinner metal try 'walking' the rod. That's laying a warm rod along the surface of the metal you are welding at quite a shallow angle, and pulling the rod backwards while keeping its flux still in contact with the surface of the metal. Only gravity is required to keep the rod down, you just guide it along. Because the arc is hitting the metal at a shallow angle, a lot of its fierceness is lost, and once you get used to keeping the correct angle, and find the right speed, you can weld pretty thin metal this way.
As with mig, doing it on the bench is relatively easy, doing it underneath a chassis is more difficult by far.
Not all rods will do this technique well, though. Some cheap rods have flux mixtures which are not high quality, or are not evenly mixed, and you get sputtering and hesitation every now and then, and the arc can go out.

But arc is a skill well worth learning, even with the Cosmo 'buzz-box'.
For the cost of a couple of boxes of rods, you can learn a new skill, so long as you can borrow the welder for a few weeks, and have scrap to work with.
Best of luck with it!

 

[Wozzaaah]

I'll put it in my signature when I can figure out how to set one

Signatures aren't enabled for new members, it takes a bit of time and a certain number of posts before the option becomes available.

 

[Semtex]

Signatures aren't enabled for new members, it takes a bit of time and a certain number of posts before the option becomes available.

I sort of guessed that, in the meantime here is a link to the blog so you can have a laugh at my welding attempts

http://kernowlada.blogspot.com/

I'm in no rush to finish the project, if you read the full blog you will see it has stalled a bit whilst waiting for cash to buy the parts to finish the job.
(one good thing about the Riva is that it is still in production in Russia so parts availability is not a problem unles you want a right hand drive steering box)

Keith19, yes I am going to keep on at it. Obviously I'm going nowhere near the car at the moment. I'm sure things can only get better.

 

[madkayaker]

please don't take this the wrong way but thats not welding! find some thicker plate and practice on that untill you get a nice looking weld then try the thiner stuff

 

[Semtex]

please don't take this the wrong way but thats not welding! find some thicker plate and practice on that untill you get a nice looking weld then try the thiner stuff

Thankyou madkayaker, thats exactly the sort of feedback I was after. It is pointless pussyfooting around, just be blunt and to the point.

And no I don't take your comments the wrong way

 

[madkayaker]

read the tutorial on ARC welding i think there is a couple of video's as well. the bloke who wrote that knows alot about stick welding alot more than me!

 

[Wozzaaah]

Arc welding is NOT suitable for car bodywork, full stop.
Those 'attempts' are shocking to say the least, all you've managed to do is gouge dirty great holes in the steel, nothing there even slightly resembles a weld.

The only sensible option is a mig welder, it doesn't have to be big or expensive (or have copper windings ), but it needs to be a mig welder. Not an arc welder, not a tig welder or a spot welder.

Look for one with a current range of 30-130 or even 150 amps and you're sorted.

 

[keith19]

"The only sensible option is a mig welder, it doesn't have to be big or expensive (or have copper windings ), but it needs to be a mig welder."

Woz is right, of course. So far as bodywork goes, the mig is the best option, the easiest to learn option, too.

But while you're saving for a mig, it's worth learning stick, especially if you have the time to spare. There will be times when, even if you own a 150-160 amp hobby mig, jobs come up that the mig won't even look at, which a decent little stick welder of 120-140 amps will piddle through without flinching.

Take the opportunity to learn stick while you can, then when you get a mig you'll find everything soooo easy!

By the way, the copper windings is a sort of private joke on here, kind of adds to the fun...

 

[octo0072000]

road

i agree with the above a small decent mig

another point is that car on a public road is get it moved all councill side roads carparks as far as i know all all part of road traffic act now and it has to be sorned as from either june or july all cars have to be insured or sorned
so if it's not first you get a letter then they will crush it

see linky

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/Motorinsurance/DG_186696

too much big brother watching nowadays

 

[Semtex]

OK guys I'm back

Contrary to popular belief I am not a quitter, but I am also open to sensible feedback and a couple of you have been quite blunt.

I'm not going to go down the route of "workman blames his tools" So I've had another go today and come to the following conclusions.
1. As everyone told me, the old wing I was practicing on is just to thin.

2. It was also not helped by the fact that there is some sort of waxoyle type covering on the back that just sets itself on fire.

3. Mig is definatly the way to go (as you've all said)

4. Because I've got the time and found a thicker piece of metal (I've put a freecycle request out for more) I will crack on and see if I can get some experience out of this so that as you have all said, Mig will be a lot easier.

Now to the nitty gritty.......photo's of todays work (I'm sorry, I know you don't like it but I use photobucket)

earlier in the day

Some close ups

Later in the day......the U shaped one was the last of the day

Chalk and cheese

The back of the plate, showing what I believe you guys call penetration.

The hardest part is getting started with a full rod.........easier when it gets shorter

 

[Semtex]

i agree with the above a small decent mig

another point is that car on a public road is get it moved all councill side roads carparks as far as i know all all part of road traffic act now and it has to be sorned as from either june or july all cars have to be insured or sorned
so if it's not first you get a letter then they will crush it

see linky

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/Motorinsurance/DG_186696

too much big brother watching nowadays

Fair question to ask, yes it is on private land (has been confirmed by the land registry)
The Lada is also Sorned.........Did it online as soon as the log book arrived
Cheers for the concern though

 

[keith19]

Them beads are lookin' better now, mate!

"The hardest part is getting started with a full rod.........easier when it gets shorter."

This is always true. We used to cut them in half when I was learning, makes picking up technique a lot easier. Just gives shorter runs. Still cut 'em in half if it's a tricky job that requires a real steady hand, or a one-handed weld where you can't wear a helmet and have to use a hand shield.