conventional style Push Pull gun

[Hood]

I was studying the wiring diagrams last night and considering something along these lines but was going to check out some things today on the welder itself. I don't really want to do much physical altering to the welder itself but I may not have to. What I would need is a feed motor with a Tach which I see are available from TecArc. Although not cheap they are certainly a lot cheaper than a Kemppi Super Snake, also a 4 roll feeder mechanism is available from them but it doesn't look to be the same quality as the EWM one. Anyway once I have checked out a few things today I will know more.

 

[Jim Davey]

That won’t work. There is a tacho feedback from the internal drive motor in the Phoenix. If it doesn’t see its own motor turning it will go into fault.
You could piggy back off the motor wires though. The set wouldn’t see that the internal drive motor isn’t actually pulling wire through, only that the motor is turning.

 

[Hood]

Jim, my idea was to actually disconnect the motor/tach in the EWM and extend the wiring to an external feeder which would have a motor incorporating a tacho. Not had a chance to investigate yet as to how easily that could be achieved as I do not want to start hacking away at the EWM but if it is simply a case of disconnecting a few plugs then it may be an option. The wiring Diag is not too clear (to me at least) as to whether the positive Dinse socket on the front is connected to the Mig torch but I will investigate that later, if it is then that would make life easier as well.

I have also been talking to a guy at Tranlas about their microliner torches but they are not really an option as 8m would be the absolute max and I already have that with the Binzel. I have also been enquiring about whether it would be possible to get the microliner itself and adapting it to fit to the Binzel. That may be a possibility and may allow me to get 15-16m as the microliner would provide free movement of the wire and the Binzel would provide the pulling. Mark Smits at Translas has said he is not sure if the ends could be adapted to fit the Binzel but looking at the catalogue it looks to me like it should be relatively easy for me to make up adapters from PTFE or similar. I have no idea of the price of the microliner though so that might work out as, or more, expensive than a Super Snake, time will tell

 

[matt1978]

Jim, my idea was to actually disconnect the motor/tach in the EWM and extend the wiring to an external feeder which would have a motor incorporating a tacho. Not had a chance to investigate yet as to how easily that could be achieved as I do not want to start hacking away at the EWM but if it is simply a case of disconnecting a few plugs then it may be an option. The wiring Diag is not too clear (to me at least) as to whether the positive Dinse socket on the front is connected to the Mig torch but I will investigate that later, if it is then that would make life easier as well.

I have also been talking to a guy at Tranlas about their microliner torches but they are not really an option as 8m would be the absolute max and I already have that with the Binzel. I have also been enquiring about whether it would be possible to get the microliner itself and adapting it to fit to the Binzel. That may be a possibility and may allow me to get 15-16m as the microliner would provide free movement of the wire and the Binzel would provide the pulling. Mark Smits at Translas has said he is not sure if the ends could be adapted to fit the Binzel but looking at the catalogue it looks to me like it should be relatively easy for me to make up adapters from PTFE or similar. I have no idea of the price of the microliner though so that might work out as, or more, expensive than a Super Snake, time will tell

Take a look at Binzel because they also have the MicorLiner, neither Translas nor Binzel invented it, I think it was originally by a Italian guy, but AFAIK, Translas has the “rights” for using it in torch configuration and Binzel has the rights for using it in a conduit for Automation applications where the use Bulk Packs.

Be aware though if you do disconnect the Tacho, the machine won’t work very well in Pulse mode, even if at all esp at those distances

 

[zeppelin builder]

I was studying the wiring diagrams last night and considering something along these lines but was going to check out some things today on the welder itself. I don't really want to do much physical altering to the welder itself but I may not have to. What I would need is a feed motor with a Tach which I see are available from TecArc. Although not cheap they are certainly a lot cheaper than a Kemppi Super Snake, also a 4 roll feeder mechanism is available from them but it doesn't look to be the same quality as the EWM one. Anyway once I have checked out a few things today I will know more.

If you can trick your ewm to give output current you could use a similar set up to this if runs off the positive cable with a
little jumper wire to earth
I run it off the arcgen on cc
But your cv set up would be perfect

 

[Hood]

Take a look at Binzel because they also have the MicorLiner, neither Translas nor Binzel invented it, I think it was originally by a Italian guy, but AFAIK, Translas has the “rights” for using it in torch configuration and Binzel has the rights for using it in a conduit for Automation applications where the use Bulk Packs.

Be aware though if you do disconnect the Tacho, the machine won’t work very well in Pulse mode, even if at all esp at those distances

Thanks Matt, I will look in to that.

If you can trick your ewm to give output current you could use a similar set up to this if runs off the positive cable with a
little jumper wire to earth
I run it off the arcgen on cc
But your cv set up would be perfect

I am not sure what the Miller feed has in it but I think the EWM will require Tacho feedback for its "brain" to be able to constantly alter the wire feed to suit the conditions. Will make it down to the workshop later and have a dig around inside the EWM, it probably needs a dust out anyway so that is a fine excuse to pull the cover

 

[Hood]

Sorry never noticed this part when I was first replying

......Be aware though if you do disconnect the Tacho, the machine won’t work very well in Pulse mode, even if at all esp at those distances

My intention was to fit a motor (with a tacho) externally and disconnect the one in the welder. Whether that will work or not I have no idea but can't see why not as long as I shield the signal wiring to cut down on noise. Then again I know nothing about these things so maybe the extended wiring would be an issue?

 

[Hood]

Found a vid of the Binzel offering, looks like it may be an option although again no idea of cost.

and pdf here
http://www.abicor.cz/images/content..._ROBO/English/PRO_R148_GB_Masterliner_WEB.pdf

 

[Jim Davey]

Just leave the feed motor in the set running and power a separate feeder from the motor wires. You’ll be able to adjust wire feed speed still. And yes, the drive plate is connected to positive polarity.

 

[Hood]

Just leave the feed motor in the set running and power a separate feeder from the motor wires. You’ll be able to adjust wire feed speed still. And yes, the drive plate is connected to positive polarity.

So you don't think the tacho not being connected to the motor actually feeding the wire would be an issue?

I am hopefully getting a price from Translas on Monday, they are seemingly opening a branch in Preston this week.
It is sold /m so if it looks like it will not be too expensive then I may see if I can get a short sample to work out whether it would be possible for me to adapt it to fit the Binzel. Assuming it is ok then that would be my preferred option as I could make up a 16m lead to go to the Binzel direct from the welder. I might even be able to make up 2x 8m ones so that I can swap from 8m to 16m when needed.

I am not sure what diameter the Translas liner is as I never asked but looks like the Binzel liner is 30mm OD which is a fair bit. It however is different in that each segment has 4 rollers, the Translas has just 2 rollers in each section so it may be smaller.

 

[matt1978]

I think a lot will depend on if you want to run it in a pulse mode or not. If you can get away with one of the standard mig synergic lines or are happy to put it in manual mode and select your own voltage and wire feed rate then you’d need be fine, but I can’t see how it will work on Pulse due to the rapid feedback and subsequent changes required for Pulse.

Price wise for the Translas I wouldn’t expect much change out of £1500, perhaps more, I was always under the impression that there was no cost advantage to choosing the Micro Glider system over a push pull aside from not having the cost of the additional PCB in the machine

 

[Hood]

I will definitely want it in pulse and definitely want it synergic, no point in having the EWM as I would be as well using the wee R-Tech.

I was kind of hoping the Translas microliner would be cheaper than that but was half expecting it to be in that range. If it is indeed that kind of money then it will either be investigating making my own external feeder up or just sticking with what I have and keep hauling the welder out the car and onto the boats. The other option is a Kemppi Super Snake, assuming that would work, but they are expensive as well so.......

 

[matt1978]

Again, I don’t wish to be the bearer of bad news but I can’t see how the Supersnake will work either. Like our Nanofeeder it will be a digital system and will require some form of synchronisation between the 2 motors. As I said on my PM to you, we do it via a dedicated PCB in the feed unit and additional software in order to make the Nanofeeder work on our machine, I imagine EWM and Kemppi do the same. If Kempii do a separate box for use on none Kempii machines then you’d be ok, but price wise you are going to be well in excess of £2k as also would be the case with our Nanofeeder.

Just to clarify when I say I think it won’t work....

Putting a voltage to the motor will obviously make the wheels spin but as you know when feeding Aluminium everything has to be good esp at the distances your talking about, this is even more pertinent with Pulse especially at lower currents because maintaining and regulating the arc length is essential otherwise you’ll end up with an arc that’s too short or too long and worse still constantly changing between the two.

EWM do a nice little intermediate feeder, I’m sure it won’t be cheap but it will be good quality and a “proper” solution for what your wanting to do

 

[Hood]

It was Jim that suggested the Super Snake I think so not sure how things work. Are the motors in your nanofeeder and the kemppi super snake basically AC (or DC Brushless) servos?

The Binzel Push/Pull works great but it is just a Brushed DC motor and I suppose it is not exactly the most powerful pull on it as when you come to the end of the roll it can not pull the wire through unless the torch is laid out straight and that is even with the end of the wire straightened out where it had been secured to the drum.
As I mentioned the EWM manual seems to indicate that the two wire feed motors are synchronised via current monitoring of the motors but how that works I have no idea.

Regarding the intermediate feeder, Jim mentioned that my Phoenix 330 does not have an adequate Aux transformer to power two large motors, the newer ones are OK but mine is 10 years old, so looks like that option is out as well.

I may just have to live with things the way they are which is a shame as it gets a battering when getting hauled about on boats, I even get my cables painted over by the boatyard workers as although some of them will lift them out the road others don't and even the ones that do then just drop them back down onto the wet paint the EWM has even had paint on it although I spotted that before it dried so got it off.

 

[matt1978]

Maybe I have to wind my neck in, I’m assuming I know how Kempii and EWM work but only basing my assumptions on how The Lorch system works. It could be very different.

I hope you find a solution that works for you

 

[zeppelin builder]

It was Jim that suggested the Super Snake I think so not sure how things work. Are the motors in your nanofeeder and the kemppi super snake basically AC (or DC Brushless) servos?

The Binzel Push/Pull works great but it is just a Brushed DC motor and I suppose it is not exactly the most powerful pull on it as when you come to the end of the roll it can not pull the wire through unless the torch is laid out straight and that is even with the end of the wire straightened out where it had been secured to the drum.
As I mentioned the EWM manual seems to indicate that the two wire feed motors are synchronised via current monitoring of the motors but how that works I have no idea.

Regarding the intermediate feeder, Jim mentioned that my Phoenix 330 does not have an adequate Aux transformer to power two large motors, the newer ones are OK but mine is 10 years old, so looks like that option is out as well.

I may just have to live with things the way they are which is a shame as it gets a battering when getting hauled about on boats, I even get my cables painted over by the boatyard workers as although some of them will lift them out the road others don't and even the ones that do then just drop them back down onto the wet paint the EWM has even had paint on it although I spotted that before it dried so got it off.

The miller suitcase is 24v dc brush motor it takes a feed from the welding current it has some trickery that moniters the arc length to enable it to run on constant current
It works well on thicker stuff
Shindaiwa and lincoln can run constant voltage which is less crude

 

[Hood]

The miller suitcase is 24v dc brush motor it takes a feed from the welding current it has some trickery that moniters the arc length to enable it to run on constant current
It works well on thicker stuff
Shindaiwa and lincoln can run constant voltage which is less crude

Likely wouldn't work in pulse/super pulse though

 

[HughF]

The only way I see this working out is to switch to a power source that is happy driving a separate feeder like an xmt350 (the 304 doesn't have pulse) or an old hitachi and using a cobramatic to get the last 8m to the gun. Leave the power source in the car and run the leads out to the feeder.

Or... sell the r-tech and buy that 270a double pulsed selco that's on eBay and use that as a portable machine

 

[Richard.]

I think it’s pretty clear really if you want a good system you ain’t doing it on the cheap. It’s being an interesting thread with loads of stuff discussed in it that I didn’t know about.
The way I see it really is you’ve got 3 options. Non of which are ideal.
1 stay as you are and struggle on.
2 knock something up or make/modify a different system to work in some sort of fashion to save a bit of money but probably find it’s not perfect and might not of being worth the outlay.
3 do it properly and invest. Ewm must have there own proper push pull system able to cover the length you want. It’s gonna cost a fortune but that’s the price for a proper job.

 

[Hood]

The only way I see this working out is to switch to a power source that is happy driving a separate feeder like an xmt350 (the 304 doesn't have pulse) or an old hitachi and using a cobramatic to get the last 8m to the gun. Leave the power source in the car and run the leads out to the feeder.

Or... sell the r-tech and buy that 270a double pulsed selco that's on eBay and use that as a portable machine

And

I think it’s pretty clear really if you want a good system you ain’t doing it on the cheap. It’s being an interesting thread with loads of stuff discussed in it that I didn’t know about.
The way I see it really is you’ve got 3 options. Non of which are ideal.
1 stay as you are and struggle on.
2 knock something up or make/modify a different system to work in some sort of fashion to save a bit of money but probably find it’s not perfect and might not of being worth the outlay.
3 do it properly and invest. Ewm must have there own proper push pull system able to cover the length you want. It’s gonna cost a fortune but that’s the price for a proper job.

This kind of answers both of you.
From what I can make out an intermediate feeder will have a big motor and my particular EWMs transformer isn't man enough for that and even if I could use one I would then have to just use a standard torch rather than a push pull or at least thats the way it seems to be from looking at the wiring diagrams.

The thing is however my EWM is basically a power source with the brains and a wire feeder all contained within one box and it works great with the Binzel Push/Pull.
Now if I removed the wire feed with motor and tacho with Euro socket, extended the tacho, motor and trigger wiring by say 10m and plonked them in a suitcase with a spool of wire. I could then also extend the gas hose and plug in leads to +ve and -Ve dinse terminals and run them to the suitcase. I could then basically connect my push/pull gun to the suitcase and run exactly as I do now, oh I would also need an extension from the plug on the front for the pot and motor wires and run them to the suitcase. So basically it would be exactly as it is now but the wire feed would be 10m away instead of inside the welders case.

I could also do the same by buying a wire feed, motor, tacho, Euro etc and just disconnecting the one in the welder.

I can't see why that would not work, any thoughts on why it wouldn't?