Domestic air source and cold callers

[gaz1]

Perhaps I should add I've nothing against heat pumps, fantastic things actually, but to pretend that a) the oil boiler will not be replaceable after 2025, and that b) sub 4 kW of solar will power it through the deepest dampest winter weather, is just plain lies, and to do this so that mr non salesman could get commission on his companies installation proper pees me off..

you do mean grant grabbing con artists with inflated prices all to fill each and everyone whos involved in the large money grabbing con

My old oil which got replaced free 5 years ago was 50 years old, super reliable but probably not very efficient. So, replacements available for the next 20 years then?
That'll do me, sub 60p a litre right now, plenty of trees about here too.

id rather turn to trees myself at least i know that will heat water to a high temp easily enough compared to running an electric boiler that fails often enough as it cannot cope with a high btu output

 

[Misterg]

These oil furnaces are pretty bomb proof. Most will outlive us!

Can I interest you in a slightly used Firebird combi?



(We also had VERY pushy ASHP sellers around the other day. I shut the door on him in the end, which I don't think I've ever done to anyone before - even JoHos!)

 

[minimutly]

you do mean grant grabbing con artists with inflated prices all to fill each and everyone whos involved in the large money grabbing con


id rather turn to trees myself at least i know that will heat water to a high temp easily enough compared to running an electric boiler that fails often enough as it cannot cope with a high btu output

No, my oil boiler is uber relliable, especially since I sorted out all the cock ups the cowboy Swansea jacks did when installing it, the washing machine pumping its waste through the condenser should have been funny, but it wasn't...

 

[gaz1]

i was on about the salesmen pushing others to take up there offers so they can claim there commisions as well as get the grant for the system being fitted

 

[minimutly]

i was on about the salesmen pushing others to take up there offers so they can claim there commisions as well as get the grant for the system being fitted

Yes, I'm with you. Not so sure about the bit about unrelliable electric boiler - it's an oil boiler, but powered by electricity - does that make it an electric boiler?

 

[Dee J]

Love the basic idea of heatpumps, but from the experience of being involved in the install of air - to - water systems I'd say they're far too complex and expensive, both for initial install and ongoing maintenance. For a small house a much simpler air-air system can meet heating needs with well established air-con equipment, and leave water heating (shower plus wash basin) to direct electric heating of a small tank.

 

[Kayos]

Well ding ding the bullshite bell...
I do have 4 kW of solar pv, works very well on sunny days. Doesn't work at night (damn), doesn't work in the winter (double damn). So, these batteries, will they store enough in the summer to run my heat pump in the winter eh? Lady opposite was told it "only needed sunlight"...

Doesn't work in winter? You have a problem with your install then

I can monitor all the systems we have installed and while the yield is lower, they all produce year round

 

[Kayos]

Perhaps I should add I've nothing against heat pumps, fantastic things actually, but to pretend that a) the oil boiler will not be replaceable after 2025, and that b) sub 4 kW of solar will power it through the deepest dampest winter weather, is just plain lies, and to do this so that mr non salesman could get commission on his companies installation proper pees me off..

No one said 4kw of pv would be enough, but as part of an energy mix, they will help

 

[Kayos]

Love the basic idea of heatpumps, but from the experience of being involved in the install of air - to - water systems I'd say they're far too complex and expensive, both for initial install and ongoing maintenance. For a small house a much simpler air-air system can meet heating needs with well established air-con equipment, and leave water heating (shower plus wash basin) to direct electric heating of a small tank.

Price is higher than boilers but honestly not by as much these days. I work on everything from 12kw Daikin units, to multi megawatt cascades, ground, water and air source

In realistic terms they are simpler than fossil fuel burning appliances, no flue, no burner, no air supply requirements for indoor units

 

[Dee J]

Price is higher than boilers but honestly not by as much these days. I work on everything from 12kw Daikin units, to multi megawatt cascades, ground, water and air source

In realistic terms they are simpler than fossil fuel burning appliances, no flue, no burner, no air supply requirements for indoor units

Would be interested in an updated perspective... I dropped out of the electrical contacting business over the covid years, so maybe I'm not fully up to date. What's the typical install cost and lifespan for say an air-water system for an existing two bed victorian terrace that's currently got the standard gas combi boiler and wet central heating?

 

[Kayos]

Would be interested in an updated perspective... I dropped out of the electrical contacting business over the covid years, so maybe I'm not fully up to date. What's the typical install cost and lifespan for say an air-water system for an existing two bed victorian terrace that's currently got the standard gas combi boiler and wet central heating?

No idea, but a megawatt (ish) of groundsource, including an energy centre feeding 5 plant rooms is about £2,400,000

 

[minimutly]

Doesn't work in winter? You have a problem with your install then

I can monitor all the systems we have installed and while the yield is lower, they all produce year round

Indeed they do, 2 to 3 hundred watts max as opposed to 3.8kW... the days are shorter, nights are longer. over 11 years of monitoring the output of a south facing system tells me I get 10% or less for the winter months - if you call this working then I'm impressed by your positivity...
The point is these salesmen are telling people these will run the heat pump - patently they will not.

 

[minimutly]

No one said 4kw of pv would be enough, but as part of an energy mix, they will help

But they do, these cold calling sales conmen. They use the "get it now before the grant dissapears and you wont get a replacement boiler after 2025" argument, and if you fit solar pv it will power the system all year round "only needs sunlight". The one yesterday even played the "I'm an energy expert and know what the government will do in 3 years time, you're a thick Welshman" trick...

 

[minimutly]

No idea, but a megawatt (ish) of groundsource, including an energy centre feeding 5 plant rooms is about £2,400,000

Hardly relevant @Kayos ? We are talking domestic here.

 

[Greeves246]

I quite like the idea of heat pumps but at 77 I don’t buy long life milk or green bananas so a promise of it will pay for itself in ten years seems too hopeful.
Why the local councils haven’t considered tapping into the warm water in all the old coal mines round here seems a waste, surely a free ground source?

 

[not done it yet]

I have no real expectation that air source heat pumps are a money-saver. A claimed COP of 4 appears, to me, to be marketing hype. Best cherry-picked result in ideal conditions over a very short period..

The only heat pumps that appear to get near to a COP of 4 seem to be from a ground source of energy (or maybe water if you are lucky enough to have a suitable supply).

As I see it, energy costs are going to rise, whatever anyone may claim, in the longer term. Nobody wants to provide a sensible cost for installing bore hole systems. When I say ‘sensible’ I mean an honest quotation for a system that is guaranteed to work to specification.

I would not mind paying out for the expense of a reliable system - but while the sharp marketing is directed at air source, for a huge quick profit, I’m not interested.

 

[fizzy]

Honestly - they’re not. Heat pumps have had a bad press due to poor experiences of early installations done to poor standards. how is getting £4 worth of energy for £1 a con?

Electricity is 4x the price of gas or oil so what is the point?
Give us unlimited nuclear power and cheap leccy and they would make perfect sense.

 

[reb78]

I have no real expectation that air source heat pumps are a money-saver. A claimed COP of 4 appears, to me, to be marketing hype. Best cherry-picked result in ideal conditions over a very short period..

The only heat pumps that appear to get near to a COP of 4 seem to be from a ground source of energy (or maybe water if you are lucky enough to have a suitable supply).

As I see it, energy costs are going to rise, whatever anyone may claim, in the longer term. Nobody wants to provide a sensible cost for installing bore hole systems. When I say ‘sensible’ I mean an honest quotation for a system that is guaranteed to work to specification.

I would not mind paying out for the expense of a reliable system - but while the sharp marketing is directed at air source, for a huge quick profit, I’m not interested.

You do raise a point that causes me to ask a question...

We are thinking of having a borehole installed for water. Our water supply pipe is over a mile and a quarter long and runs through farmland and is prone to a neighbours plough in places (mainly because he takes no care in those fields despite knowing my pipe is there).

If we install a water borehole, can the same hole be used for some sort of heating/cooling system? Might be a way to get better value from the same project..?

 

[gaz1]

Yes, I'm with you. Not so sure about the bit about unrelliable electric boiler - it's an oil boiler, but powered by electricity - does that make it an electric boiler?

there pushing out electric boilers because they want you to pay for there new power station owned by eon

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[fizzy]

But they do, these cold calling sales conmen. They use the "get it now before the grant dissapears and you wont get a replacement boiler after 2025" argument, and if you fit solar pv it will power the system all year round "only needs sunlight". The one yesterday even played the "I'm an energy expert and know what the government will do in 3 years time, you're a thick Welshman" trick...

I have been offered a grant to install an airsouce heatpump - new radiators - cavity wall insulation and solar panels. I have also been told that the solar panels will run the heatpump and I will have tiny bills
I am actually considering it. The house needs total renovation. Will save me a fortune and most new buyers will be daft enough to believe the solar panels will run the heating. The crazy things is that I MUST get cavity wall insulation for the system to be approved. And yet the property doesn't have double glazing. Apparently that doesn't matter as long as the cavity is filled