Domestic air source and cold callers

[minimutly]

Fizzy,

Dinorwig @ 9.1GWh is 4 times the capacity of this battery? (no ‘/‘ in GWh, btw - no such unit as GW/h)

The single advantage of a battery is the response time - Dinorwig takes about 20s if the turbines are already spinning (probably a minute, if not). Dinorwig can supply 1728MW - nearly half a GW than this battery (without extra upgrade to the grid connection)

Ffestiniog pumped hydro can add another 360MW with a capacity of nearly 1.5GWh. Both those installations will be working long after the battery has been changed a few times, Inexpect,

Even so, this battery is yet another aid to avoid power outages, balance the grid and act as an energy store. Another piece of the national grid supply.

It could never supply enough power to run the whole grid - even for one second, so the 3 1/2 minute ‘analogy’ is a joke. What Scenario can you foresee where all of the UK power would need to be replaced within a few seconds? We now have nuclear plants as base load as well as fossil fuel generation as dispatchable output. Only the renewables are not quite as predictable - but are quite well forecast most of the time. Then there are umpteen HVDC International connectors.

So what is your problem? I don’t see it, the National grid don’t see it. Only you and a few others cry about it.

I’ll tell you about an issue I’m seeing occasionally, as a result of the slackening of the regulations around disconnecting from the grid if it fails -
So originally the G59 regulations were really tight and the dno s if anything pushed them tighter, so when there was a grid brown-out, or a fault somewhere out there far away, the turbine, or whatever you had turning the generator would trip. After a time it would auto reset, provided you have designed the system correctly.
Now we have been told to modify the settings to a new g59/3, or for new sites g99. This massively relaxed the settings to prevent another outage such as happened in the south east around 4 years ago. All hunky dory then? Actually no, what I’ve seen is we are getting occasional current overloads, taking the generator ACB out. This does not reset. To date I’ve never identified a fault for this - so what’s going on?
Well here is my answer - when we now get a brown-out, rather than an auto resetting trip the turbine (and generator) keep on spinning. Now in theory thengenerator, being a rotating machine must stay synced to the grid. However, if the brown out is long enough, and deep enough, the turbine will start to speed up. Result? An out of synch generator, when the grid comes back up.
This has now happened enough times on various sites for me to be pretty sure that this is correct. Happily, inverter machines hooked up to batteries (some wind turbines also) do not share this speeding up characteristic, but for turbine generators I believe it’s a major issue.

 

[gaz1]

from some info it would be the opposite way

to make a grid fully collapse is to hurt it at the high point of generation between 4-6 when everyone is getting home

so if everyone in the uk sick and tired of the energy bills all turned off there power at full tilt they would cause alot of damage as the grid has been powered up to provide this power at this time, if it has no where to go

it will start to blow transformers, substations as they will start to over heat as power is still being produced, the electric power generation boards will be screaming at them to shut things down

mps and others have suggested a time of 10pm of everyone shut off there power at this time but that wouldnt cause the damage to teach the energy suppliers a lesson

once the transformers and substations start tripping out its going to be a while before power is restored

only at reconnection would anyone thats suppling the network be out of synch from a black out therefore during a black out you should disconnect from the grid to stop power being pulled from your system

otherwise theres a high chance you would receive an energy spike down the grid due to being out of synch with the network

 

[willie.macleod]

from some info it would be the opposite way

to make a grid fully collapse is to hurt it at the high point of generation between 4-6 when everyone is getting home

so if everyone in the uk sick and tired of the energy bills all turned off there power at full tilt they would cause alot of damage as the grid has been powered up to provide this power at this time, if it has no where to go

I think the chances of getting enough folk to engage with this destructive idea is minimal, given the choice between making a protest or having their tea most will choose tea....

 

[fizzy]

Fizzy,

Dinorwig @ 9.1GWh is 4 times the capacity of this battery? (no ‘/‘ in GWh, btw - no such unit as GW/h)

The single advantage of a battery is the response time - Dinorwig takes about 20s if the turbines are already spinning (probably a minute, if not). Dinorwig can supply 1728MW - nearly half a GW than this battery (without extra upgrade to the grid connection)

Ffestiniog pumped hydro can add another 360MW with a capacity of nearly 1.5GWh. Both those installations will be working long after the battery has been changed a few times, Inexpect,

Even so, this battery is yet another aid to avoid power outages, balance the grid and act as an energy store. Another piece of the national grid supply.

It could never supply enough power to run the whole grid - even for one second, so the 3 1/2 minute ‘analogy’ is a joke. What Scenario can you foresee where all of the UK power would need to be replaced within a few seconds? We now have nuclear plants as base load as well as fossil fuel generation as dispatchable output. Only the renewables are not quite as predictable - but are quite well forecast most of the time. Then there are umpteen HVDC International connectors.

So what is your problem? I don’t see it, the National grid don’t see it. Only you and a few others cry about it.

We hardly have any nuclear left that's the problem!. What picks up the slack? Gas. Gas power stations are expected to just "switch on" hence why our bills were so high when gas prices shot up. Many people - and the politicians- actually seem to believe we can go 100% renewables and use batteries to pick up the slack for 10 days in Winter with no wind. Never going to happen! Germany also seems to think they can go all out for renewables when in fact, instead of gas, they burn loads of filthy lignite instead.
If we want to be serious about cutting CO2 we need to stop burning fossil fuels and go all out for more nuclear like France. People like Putin and the Arabs can't hold a gun to our heads then either.

 

[gaz1]

We hardly have any nuclear left that's the problem!. What picks up the slack? Gas. Gas power stations are expected to just "switch on" hence why our bills were so high when gas prices shot up. Many people - and the politicians- actually seem to believe we can go 100% renewables and use batteries to pick up the slack for 10 days in Winter with no wind. Never going to happen! Germany also seems to think they can go all out for renewables when in fact, instead of gas, they burn loads of filthy lignite instead.
If we want to be serious about cutting CO2 we need to stop burning fossil fuels and go all out for more nuclear like France. People like Putin and the Arabs can't hold a gun to our heads then either.

theyve gone for household incineration generators instead thats pumping loads of crap

 

[not done it yet]

theyve gone for household incineration generators instead thats pumping loads of crap

Renewables are reducing fossil burning. That is a fact. Fizzy is correct that stoge is never going to supply our electricity for a ten day period - that is bl**dy obvious! But that will never be required. These batteries will never claim to REPLACE generation, but only to reinforce the grid capabilities to overcome/avoid short term hiccups.

How is household crap going to be changing the outcome? Oil is used for much of the packaging rubbish and any biodegradeables will produce methane from ever-increasing waste tips!

The local tip was producing 3MW from metane 50 years ago - and still flaring off methane at the same time, i expect it is producing a lot more electricitynthese days. Reducing plastic scrap is one facet and other human rubbish is basically down to the population size. Do work out the logistics, and real reasons, before making silly claims about responsible incineration processes.

 

[not done it yet]

I think the chances of getting enough folk to engage with this destructive idea is minimal, given the choice between making a protest or having their tea most will choose tea....

Renewables can be disconnected almost instantaneously - turn off solar farms - and/or in a very short time (seconds) wind farms. Wind farms arev,even now, forced to stop generation when the grid system cannot cope with the incoming power levels local to the grid connection (mostly off-shore wind farms). Most hydro is reduced in the off-peak periods to fill behind the generator for maximum output at peak periods.

There are too many not looking at the over-all picture. Running the National Grid on an hourly basis would actually open the eyes (slightly?) for all these posters who think electricity generation is simple.

 

[Kayos]

Renewables can be disconnected almost instantaneously - turn off solar farms - and/or in a very short time (seconds) wind farms. Wind farms arev,even now, forced to stop generation when the grid system cannot cope with the incoming power levels local to the grid connection (mostly off-shore wind farms). Most hydro is reduced in the off-peak periods to fill behind the generator for maximum output at peak periods.

There are too many not looking at the over-all picture. Running the National Grid on an hourly basis would actually open the eyes (slightly?) for all these posters who think electricity generation is simple.

At last, somebody speaking sense!

Electricity generation, load and demand balancing is incredibly difficult

If it was easy, we would be on 88% renewables already (the nuclear baseload is 12%)

 

[fizzy]

Renewables can be disconnected almost instantaneously - turn off solar farms - and/or in a very short time (seconds) wind farms. Wind farms arev,even now, forced to stop generation when the grid system cannot cope with the incoming power levels local to the grid connection (mostly off-shore wind farms). Most hydro is reduced in the off-peak periods to fill behind the generator for maximum output at peak periods.

There are too many not looking at the over-all picture. Running the National Grid on an hourly basis would actually open the eyes (slightly?) for all these posters who think electricity generation is simple.

Turning them off is easy. But what happens when we have hardly any wind or solar for a few days?
Gas powerstations have to fire up and shut down. It is costing millions in extra wear and tear as they are not designed to operate that way. Several gas powerstations went bust as they are expected to operate in this manner. The ones still open charge a massive amount to run when needed.
We have replaced a stable base load with a very intermittent one which is not good.

 

[minimutly]

At last, somebody speaking sense!

Electricity generation, load and demand balancing is incredibly difficult

If it was easy, we would be on 88% renewables already (the nuclear baseload is 12%)

You should add distribution to that - most generation is a long way from where it’s needed, and pretty much all new generation will be too..

 

[fizzy]

You should add distribution to that - most generation is a long way from where it’s needed, and pretty much all new generation will be too..

Hence the ugly new pylons they wat to build through our national parks

 

[gaz1]

The local tip was producing 3MW from metane 50 years ago - and still flaring off methane at the same time, i expect it is producing a lot more electricitynthese days. Reducing plastic scrap is one facet and other human rubbish is basically down to the population size. Do work out the logistics, and real reasons, before making silly claims about responsible incineration processes.

as goes for waste take your head out if the sand, waste incineration is not being responsible

taken from the above video electric generation

plastic use /landfill hypocrite's?

Re plastic straws,i priced some components for a paper straw making machine 2 years ago,don’t know what became of it ,though I’ve had them in my drink from independent cafes ,were at least 17 miles from the nearest McDonald’s,thank god.

www.mig-welding.co.uk

so lets ban wood stoves as there producing co2

https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/homemade-wood-coal-burners-might-be-banned.88211/

the truth of the matter is waste incineration is causing the co2 lets blame something else as its not regulated

 

[gaz1]

ive been looking down the sand battery route for heat storage as its far superior to water heat storage

its 4m wide x 7m high sand we have plenty of it

Sand Battery – Polar Night Energy

polarnightenergy.fi

now i can use solar electricity to send heat into the sand and use the old brick heaters to supply it as well

sand batterys can hold heat for months compared to water

now i know i can get 2000f out of a rocket stove well over 4 hrs worth of that type of heat

for cooling down in summer all i have to do is create a water tunnel to get nice cool air into the property

 

[fizzy]

ive been looking down the sand battery route for heat storage as its far superior to water heat storage

its 4m wide x 7m high sand we have plenty of it

Sand Battery – Polar Night Energy

polarnightenergy.fi

now i can use solar electricity to send heat into the sand and use the old brick heaters to supply it as well

sand batterys can hold heat for months compared to water

now i know i can get 2000f out of a rocket stove well over 4 hrs worth of that type of heat

for cooling down in summer all i have to do is create a water tunnel to get nice cool air into the property

Good idea but will needs some serious insulation - unless you put it inside the house

 

[not done it yet]

as goes for waste take your head out if the sand, waste incineration is not being responsible

taken from the above video electric generation

View attachment 409842

plastic use /landfill hypocrite's?

Re plastic straws,i priced some components for a paper straw making machine 2 years ago,don’t know what became of it ,though I’ve had them in my drink from independent cafes ,were at least 17 miles from the nearest McDonald’s,thank god.

www.mig-welding.co.uk

so lets ban wood stoves as there producing co2

https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/homemade-wood-coal-burners-might-be-banned.88211/

the truth of the matter is waste incineration is causing the co2 lets blame something else as its not regulated

You missed my point? Methane to CO2 is the eventual conversion in the atmosphere. But, meanwhile, methane is a far more effective green-house gaz than carbon dioxide. Plastic waste needs to go somewher, so what would youndo with a filthy greatnpile of plastic waste? Think about it, and come up with a better answer?

 

[not done it yet]

Gas powerstations have to fire up and shut down. It is costing millions in extra wear and tear as they are not designed to operate that way.

Here we go again! Gas fired piwer stations are not particularly affected by stop-starts - all it costsnis the warming-up time. It is the BASE LOAD stations that are designed for continuous operation - particularly nuclear, and to a fair extent, coal fired operations.

It is why gas fired stations are often referred to as “peakers’.

The Sun has been shining for about 4 1/2 billion years. Solar generation will be taking place somewhere on the globe 24 hours a day. More and more interconnectors will be installed around the globe.

Get used to it. Nuclear cannot operate - except as base load. Coal is only about 42% efficient, at best. Combined cycle gas stations are likely over 60% efficient.

Yes, build more hinkley points and export surplus power? OK until nobody wants it - and then what to do?

These are the conundrums that have to be solved. China and France already own most of hinkly point C. We don’t actually mine any nuclear furl, either.

People have ‘bees in their bonnets’ about their fixed, little understanding of energy generation and distribution.

The simple fact is that renewable energy is the cheapest and least polluting for the foreseeable future. Things may change (eventual fusion reactors?) but until then we need to harness as much non-poluting energy as possible.

 

[fizzy]

Here we go again! Gas fired piwer stations are not particularly affected by stop-starts - all it costsnis the warming-up time. It is the BASE LOAD stations that are designed for continuous operation - particularly nuclear, and to a fair extent, coal fired operations.

It is why gas fired stations are often referred to as “peakers’.

The Sun has been shining for about 4 1/2 billion years. Solar generation will be taking place somewhere on the globe 24 hours a day. More and more interconnectors will be installed around the globe.

Get used to it. Nuclear cannot operate - except as base load. Coal is only about 42% efficient, at best. Combined cycle gas stations are likely over 60% efficient.

Yes, build more hinkley points and export surplus power? OK until nobody wants it - and then what to do?

These are the conundrums that have to be solved. China and France already own most of hinkly point C. We don’t actually mine any nuclear furl, either.

People have ‘bees in their bonnets’ about their fixed, little understanding of energy generation and distribution.

The simple fact is that renewable energy is the cheapest and least polluting for the foreseeable future. Things may change (eventual fusion reactors?) but until then we need to harness as much non-poluting energy as possible.

They are now pulling out of wind power! The companies put in the ultra low priced bids have admitted they can't operate at that cost. Higher interest rates has made them less viable.

Giant windfarm off Norfolk coast halted due to spiralling costs

Swedish energy giant Vattenfall says costs have climbed 40% due to rise in global gas prices

www.theguardian.com

They bid £37.35 per MWh which all the wind enthusiasts jumped at saying "look how cheap wind is"

Long inter connectors are stupidly expensive and it is a fallacy to say it is always windy somewhere. An area of high pressure can sit over the whole of Europe and create low wind conditions for up to 2 weeks at a time. Conversely when it is very windy EVERYONE has too much wind power so nobody wants to buy it. Same goes for solar.

Interconnectors mean we end up paying through the nose for power - last year to avoid a blackout in London National Grid paid £9724 per MWh.
Also this year National grid were PAYING countries to take our excess power at £550 per MWh. This was due to us having too much wind and solar - but so did the countries we wanted to sell it to!
It is lunacy - and people wonder why we pay more for electricity than other countries.
No wonder manufacturers won't come to Britain!

And just ask people who work at gas fired powerstations how much damage and wear and tear is being caused by the way they now have to run!
You are obviously unaware of the fiasco that happened at the Baglan Bay powerstation and the effect it had on local businesses.

 

[gaz1]

You missed my point? Methane to CO2 is the eventual conversion in the atmosphere. But, meanwhile, methane is a far more effective green-house gaz than carbon dioxide. Plastic waste needs to go somewher, so what would youndo with a filthy greatnpile of plastic waste? Think about it, and come up with a better answer?

turn the plastic into another use

but its cheaper to burn it

methane can be burnt but as cows make enough of it anyway its a double edge sword there is alternatives however the banks dont want to loan to it as its not a quick payback same with the landfill power generation from methane

alot of food can go down a digester including industrial ones but that all depends on collection of the material

Good idea but will needs some serious insulation - unless you put it inside the house

Reported R-values for straw bale walls range from R-17 to R-54, depending on the test procedure, the type of straw used and the type

 

[minimutly]

ive been looking down the sand battery route for heat storage as its far superior to water heat storage

its 4m wide x 7m high sand we have plenty of it

Sand Battery – Polar Night Energy

polarnightenergy.fi

now i can use solar electricity to send heat into the sand and use the old brick heaters to supply it as well

sand batterys can hold heat for months compared to water

now i know i can get 2000f out of a rocket stove well over 4 hrs worth of that type of heat

for cooling down in summer all i have to do is create a water tunnel to get nice cool air into the property

So why does it hold heat longer than water?

 

[gaz1]

its the boiling point of water

compared to the likes of solar water or solar oil even sand which has a higher rating of

once you hit the boiling point you cant add more heat to the fluid so best to be below boiling point