electrode fumes in confined spaces?

[V_King]

Hi,

need to do a few welds on a mild steel in a confined space and wonder if rutile electrodes emit any potentially dangerous gasses? I usually use a 3m 9928 mask anyways, when welding inside, but just want to be sure to outlive the welds

Cheers

 

[Brad93]

All electrodes give off unhealthy gases. If your mask has the correct filters you will be fine.

 

[Kent]

Wow on a second, confined space? You realise you burn a fair bit of the o2 content up welding? Seriously confined space needs a better risk assessment than that - you can kill yourself if the o2 drops you have no alarm and no watcher and no rescue plan.
This really happens btw people die

 

[HMB]

16% minO2

 

[cocker]

Get a big extractor fan set up to get the fumes outside .

 

[normspanners]

Get a big extractor fan set up to get the fumes outside .

that might take even more of the o2 out !

 

[Pete.]

Yeah don't extract - blow fresh air into a confined space. If you extract, what takes it's place might be no better. You might even be re-cycling the fumes.

 

[brightspark]

as above. just blow a bit of fresh air in. couldn't be more simple

 

[dannyp]

for really nasty holes, i use one of the arline fed adflo thingys it seems to work well, tho you need decent filter defore the mask if useing shop air

 

[Liquid Metal]

Not being funny, but is this a private job/something youre working on at home? Or is it something you're working on in your workplace??

Only asking because if its for an employer, then working in confined spaces carries a whole set of procedures, training courses that need to be done, risk assessments and all sorts. Just saying "oh ok boss its only a little bit of work, so yeah ok ill do it for you" is basically going against all of the HSE regs and you shouldnt be doing it as your putting yourself at risk. Is there even so much as somebody standing outside the entry point watching you, there to summon help from somebody with relevant qualifications and experience to get in and get you with putting themselves at risk (sure its a CS3 cert).

Bit more involved than it seems.

As far as the O2 levels are concerned, a drop below 19.5% will cause the gas monitorring equipment (which you should be wearing working in a confined space) to sound its alarm. A drop to this level will inpair concentration, judgement etc. Drop to 14-15% wil cause extreme exhaustion in any physical movement (including trying to breathe) 10-12% unconsciousness, and below around 8%, death.

 

[Liquid Metal]

If that came accross as me being an a**hole then i apologise it wasnt meant that way, just gets on my wick the way employers habitually take advantage of people threatening them with the loss of their job if they question anything.
Thing is if something (god forbid it) went wrong while you were going whatever it is
that your doing in that confined space, by enterring it without the relevant training, you might find your taking full responsibilty for it, and therefore not have a leg to stand on if something went wrong. Could even end up in the wrong legally yourself.

As far as the fume side of it goes, AT LEAST get some sort of ducting and fan to suck the fumes out, and have a fan by the entry point blowing clean air in, and a decent fume
mask and all should be ok as far as the fumes are concerned

 

[Kent]

It was exactly my thoughts but still even as a one off hobby job it's not worth loosing your life over

 

[anto44]

You need to clarify what you mean by confined space. Confined as in my shed is quite small or confined as in i can barely fit inside this pipe?

 

[Pete.]

Not being funny, but is this a private job/something youre working on at home? Or is it something you're working on in your workplace??

Only asking because if its for an employer, then working in confined spaces carries a whole set of procedures, training courses that need to be done, risk assessments and all sorts. Just saying "oh ok boss its only a little bit of work, so yeah ok ill do it for you" is basically going against all of the HSE regs and you shouldnt be doing it as your putting yourself at risk. Is there even so much as somebody standing outside the entry point watching you, there to summon help from somebody with relevant qualifications and experience to get in and get you with putting themselves at risk (sure its a CS3 cert).

Bit more involved than it seems.

As far as the O2 levels are concerned, a drop below 19.5% will cause the gas monitorring equipment (which you should be wearing working in a confined space) to sound its alarm. A drop to this level will inpair concentration, judgement etc. Drop to 14-15% wil cause extreme exhaustion in any physical movement (including trying to breathe) 10-12% unconsciousness, and below around 8%, death.

Whilst I agree with all the above I don't believe there's an actual legal requirement for confined space training, in the way that there is for operating plant etc. The requirement is that appropriate control measures be put into place. If entering the confined space requires the use of emergency escape sets such as crystal rebreather or drager-type bottle and mask then there certainly is a requirement for training in their use, and that is what most 'confined space training' is - use of the escape sets whilst entering confined space.

That said - the risk vs severity levels for entering confined space, especially going underground, are so great as am employer you would be suicidal to not undertake training or have a VERY robust risk assessment, entry control system and of course briefing records.

 

[Liquid Metal]

The rebreather or BA escape training is a HSE course, CS2 i believe,
The CS1 training i think is still required for when working in confined spaces without a specific hazard (doing it properly), as the firm i work for do a fair bit of work on oil refinery tanks and pipework amongst other things, and we have to re do a CS1 every 3 years.

There are so many ins and outs to all of it though that ive probably got some of it a** about face somewhere along the lines lol

 

[addjunkie]

Im the man on the other end who makes you do all these things to get to work in the confined space. All good advice above. Follow it or risk death. Your death and probably your mates when he comes in to help you. Quite common it happens about 1 a year if you read the safety learning sent out.

What is a confined space, well definitions change from firm to firm and country to country, but in simplistic terms its any space in which your access egress is impaired and you may be at risk. Trenches, tanks, roof voids, floor voids, pipes, tunnels, the list goes on.

If blowing air in there is a calculation for how much xs air you need to supply and how many air changes you need. Cant remember the detail.

Not sure of the course names, but an employer or site must be able to demonstrate that they do these things to the required standards set by hse. A quality risk assesment should generate the controls you need. In addition to above you must have some kind of rescue plan, its unacceptable to rely on 999.

Continuous atmosphere monitoring is most critical. Saw a near miss once, where they were blowing chilled air in to vessels in Africa. To make working in the vessels bearable. But some muppet put a diesel compressor exhaust below the intake 50 yards away in a safe atmosphere. Fortunatley it was picked up before the next entry!

 

[Kent]

Africa! Typical!

 

[knighty]

kind of off topic but kind of on topic...

for those of us welding at home/hobby stuff, but would like a bit of fresh air... does anyone know of a mask which hooks up to a compressed air line to give you fresh air... but is not too cumbersome / no bag over head etc. ?

I'm tempted to add a bit of hose to my normal mask, thinking a gentle breeze of fresh air over my face would be nice to counter the fumes from burning underseal etc.


a few years back I used to climb inside the rotating drum of a machine and weld it up (the galvanised drum) - house pipe in mouth for fresh air, breath in through mouth and out through nose... take 5 min to get used to each time you do it but it's fine after that, can do it all day long

I'm not flexible enough any more to climb inside, have to strip the machine down and weld from the other side of the drum :-(

 

[Beeezer]

Not being funny, but is this a private job/something youre working on at home? Or is it something you're working on in your workplace??

Only asking because if its for an employer, then working in confined spaces carries a whole set of procedures, training courses that need to be done, risk assessments and all sorts. Just saying "oh ok boss its only a little bit of work, so yeah ok ill do it for you" is basically going against all of the HSE regs and you shouldnt be doing it as your putting yourself at risk. Is there even so much as somebody standing outside the entry point watching you, there to summon help from somebody with relevant qualifications and experience to get in and get you with putting themselves at risk (sure its a CS3 cert).

Bit more involved than it seems.

As far as the O2 levels are concerned, a drop below 19.5% will cause the gas monitorring equipment (which you should be wearing working in a confined space) to sound its alarm. A drop to this level will inpair concentration, judgement etc. Drop to 14-15% wil cause extreme exhaustion in any physical movement (including trying to breathe) 10-12% unconsciousness, and below around 8%, death.

Would this sort of thing apply to a self employed person that does a lot of work for the same company?

 

[skotl]

I'm just a nosy neighbour, but I think this is a fascinating thread primarily because the intent hinges on whether the OP is a home worker or is being coerced into potentially unsafe practices by his or her employer.
The OP is relatively new to the forum so I think we need to call them back to offer more context; Hey, @V_King - can you give us more info so that we can help you reach a conclusion?