normspanners
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Should come back at the same pressure as the pot ie lift pump pressure which should be virtually zero unless the bleed off is highly restricted back to tank.
But I understand what you are trying to say
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But I understand what you are trying to say
super noob
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well its coming back at a higher pressure than the stuff feeding the pot, more like 20psi maybe ?
It runs round the injector rail, through the exit on the fuel pressure reg, then straight back to the pot
It runs round the injector rail, through the exit on the fuel pressure reg, then straight back to the pot
normspanners
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The return from the pressure reg should be at zero ish pressure (but high volume) because it aught to be an open ended pipe and if there is any pressure there it can affect the rail pressure, by adjusting the diaphragm /spring relationship, thus altering the fueling.
super noob
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Pete.
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This is something people don't take into account, and it's variable according to demand.
Yet to see a bike with a swirl pot. Mine's fitted with a 600hp pump and just has a straight return to tank.
Bike tanks have geometry/location on their side (relatively tall compared to length/width & above the engine) compared to cars and the way they go around corners helps too- put a bike engine in a car and you need to worry about oil surge for example
. I told you how to find 'em in post # 8 of this thread
Not many, usually thinking about finishing it and going to the pub when making 'em and as far as pics go i've already posted as much detail as i'm prepared to share- can't give all the secrets away
. I told you how to find 'em in post # 8 of this threadnormspanners
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Bike tanks are like a form of big swirl pot apart from braking G's when you shouldnt be on the throttle anyway mind you on some bike you do do left foot braking !!!
Bikes don't undergo significant lateral G so it's not a problem.
Standard road cars now have a type of swirl pot arrangement inside them so it's much less required than it use to be. Unless your doing lots of track action on your fast road car you don't need to bother with all this dual pump and swirl pot hassle.
Standard road cars now have a type of swirl pot arrangement inside them so it's much less required than it use to be. Unless your doing lots of track action on your fast road car you don't need to bother with all this dual pump and swirl pot hassle.
bill_gj
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No reply from Pete yet...I was interested in the type of pump used because I used to design fuel delivery systems for a major OEM and I developed a curiosity about how much engine power was claimed on dyno tests versus how much power was capable of being developed once the engine was in a car/bike, whatever.
For example - 600bhp is a lot of power, which requires a lot of fuel to be sent to the engine, plus some extra to run what is being termed as a "swirl pot".
A 500 bhp installation that I developed needed over 250 litre/hr to meet objectives.
For example - 600bhp is a lot of power, which requires a lot of fuel to be sent to the engine, plus some extra to run what is being termed as a "swirl pot".
A 500 bhp installation that I developed needed over 250 litre/hr to meet objectives.
whensparksfly
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turning out to be a great thread im sitting back and letting the smart people school me.
put up pics of your projects to see what your systems look like
put up pics of your projects to see what your systems look like
whensparksfly
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i would love some pics of inside swirl pots and the inside of tanks with internal swirl pot
bill_gj
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I never used the 044 pump, although I have seen similar (in-tank, open inlet end) used by some production vehicles, I doubt that the internals (pump cell and armature) were the same though.
Durability of the 044, if used to its maximum potential, must be pretty poor as the EKP3 and EKP4 (044 is in the EKP4 family) pumps are often going sick by 80.000 miles, as evidenced by increased noise and poor hot fuel handling when the weather gets warm.
Production fuel delivery modules almost invariably use a jet pump to fill the fuel reservoir surrounding the fuel pump. This way the return fuel is constantly pulling in fuel from the main tank and keeping the reservoir temperature as low as possible and the level as high as possible.
The jet pump can be either driven by the return fuel or by a bleed from the pressurised fuel.
When driven by the return fuel, it is always a relatively low performance, in terms of filling the reservoir, so it's best suited to smaller engines and lower power outputs. That way the return flow pressure is kept low and has limited effect on regulated pressure at the rail.
When driven by the pressurised flow, the nozzle of the jet pump has to be kept small to minimise the flow lost to the engine. This has a beneficial effect as the filling performance of the reservoir is improved.
One 5 bar system I worked on had a jet pump that consumed about 7 litre/hr and filled the reservoir at a rate of about 240 litre/hr
Durability of the 044, if used to its maximum potential, must be pretty poor as the EKP3 and EKP4 (044 is in the EKP4 family) pumps are often going sick by 80.000 miles, as evidenced by increased noise and poor hot fuel handling when the weather gets warm.
Production fuel delivery modules almost invariably use a jet pump to fill the fuel reservoir surrounding the fuel pump. This way the return fuel is constantly pulling in fuel from the main tank and keeping the reservoir temperature as low as possible and the level as high as possible.
The jet pump can be either driven by the return fuel or by a bleed from the pressurised fuel.
When driven by the return fuel, it is always a relatively low performance, in terms of filling the reservoir, so it's best suited to smaller engines and lower power outputs. That way the return flow pressure is kept low and has limited effect on regulated pressure at the rail.
When driven by the pressurised flow, the nozzle of the jet pump has to be kept small to minimise the flow lost to the engine. This has a beneficial effect as the filling performance of the reservoir is improved.
One 5 bar system I worked on had a jet pump that consumed about 7 litre/hr and filled the reservoir at a rate of about 240 litre/hr
normspanners
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Hi Bill
but in a competition set up the high pressure pump does not 'run' the swirl pot the 'lift' pumps do, it takes it fuel from the swirl pot and as long as the the take off pipe is in the right tangent it aids rotation (if returned to it can significantly increase the rotation) and when you say 'termed as a swirl pot' surely a swirl pot does what it says and cyclones the fuel to the outside, any air is left in the centre top section and dissipates up the fuel/air return to tank.
I think you are refering to the in tank anti cavitation reservoirs/ de-aerators that are fitted to most cars nowadays?
bill_gj
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Well, the terminology obviously differs somewhat between OEM design and aftermarket/competition design.
My terms are what are universally recognised in OEM production cars. 'Swirl pots' as such, haven't been used in production cars for years.
Agreed, if you are using chassis-mounted high pressure pumps and low-pressure pumps to drive/fill a swirl pot, that is a different proposition.
The modern fuel delivery module, from whatever supplier, has been designed to cope with high lateral G and 1-in-3 gradients with quite low levels of fuel in the tank.
My terms are what are universally recognised in OEM production cars. 'Swirl pots' as such, haven't been used in production cars for years.
Agreed, if you are using chassis-mounted high pressure pumps and low-pressure pumps to drive/fill a swirl pot, that is a different proposition.
The modern fuel delivery module, from whatever supplier, has been designed to cope with high lateral G and 1-in-3 gradients with quite low levels of fuel in the tank.
With regards to the aftermarket your average punter 'understands' that swirl pot = my fuel injection will work. Tell them the tank contains venturi/jet pumps to scavange this and fill that and they look at you like you're an alien. Then you have to explain how the fuel pick up works to which they reply "ah, like a swirl pot" 
With competition stuff there's sometimes bag tanks and molded foam filled fuel cells involved to muddy the picture in that the average punter buys the cheaper 'swirl pot' which has most (or even all) of it's fittings welded in perpendicular to the body rather than tangentially so doesn't do much in the way of swirling...
With competition stuff there's sometimes bag tanks and molded foam filled fuel cells involved to muddy the picture in that the average punter buys the cheaper 'swirl pot' which has most (or even all) of it's fittings welded in perpendicular to the body rather than tangentially so doesn't do much in the way of swirling...
super noob
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Heres the one I'm fitting to mine
whensparksfly
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found this pic on the net would this be as good as and external swirl pot?what do you all think of this setup?
happy new year everyone
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/dodger147/swirl2.jpg
happy new year everyone
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/dodger147/swirl2.jpg
super noob
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If you're still in need of one I'm actually selling that one in the picture, not used it but I've swapped from injection to carb so I've got no use for it now
