Hobbyweld versus SGS - thoughts please.

[hotponyshoes]

I dunno, £150 for 50l cylinders filled to 200 bar is a lot cheaper even if you scrap every cylinder after use! No rental, no deposit.

Only the first one (as you don't have to pay a deposit)

I pay £110 for a 30l hobbyweld filled to 300bar so that's 12.2 pence per litre

A 50l cylinder filled to 200bar at £150 is 15 pence a litre.
And that's if it actually has 200 bar in it. Although it's easy enough to take a regulator or the bathroom scales along with you the first time.

I'm not saying it's worth worrying about 3p a litre differential but i don't know if it's worth the op driving 200 miles to pay more for the gas?
Although he will save £100+ on not paying the deposit and he would have to use 40 odd bottles of hobbyweld before he starts to save money..
And if he's using more than 3 bottles a year boc (or one of the other rental based) will probably work out cheaper anyway!

 

[hotponyshoes]

Obviously the facebook etc places would be better if you are local to one.
Even better if they do actually take the bottles back and charge a lower price for an exchange.

 

[addjunkie]

Well, further to my last post, it seems that Hobbyweld deposit is £110 as stated, and their fill charge is £101. But theirs are supposedly filled to 230 bar, as opposed to SGS which most on here seem to be saying are generally around 180/190 bar. If the volume of extra gas you get for a given increase in pressure is a constant, then that means, at, let's say 185 bar compared to 230 bar, you're getting about 25% extra at the higher pressure. But the Hobbyweld fill is also about 25% more expensive, which means they're costing about the same in terms of price per cubic metre of gas, and the only real difference is the deposit: Hobbyweld @ £110 (which you get back minus a £10 + VAT admin fee) against SGS @ £120 (which you get back in full).

So, for an occasional user such as myself, it looks like SGS might just edge it! Incidentally, I tried three local suppliers for SGS, and while their refill charges only differed by a couple of quid, their deposits varied considerably, from £120 up to £144.

120 plus vat is 144. But I didnt think deposits were supposed to be subject to vat?.

 

[Paul D63]

Well, further to my earlier post, it seems that Hobbyweld deposit is £110 as stated, and their fill charge is £101. But theirs are supposedly filled to 230 bar, as opposed to SGS which most on here seem to be saying are generally around 180/190 bar. If the volume of extra gas you get for a given increase in pressure is a constant, then that means, at, let's say 185 bar compared to 230 bar, you're getting about 25% extra at the higher pressure. But the Hobbyweld fill is also about 25% more expensive, which means they're costing about the same in terms of price per cubic metre of gas, and the only real difference is the deposit: Hobbyweld @ £110 (which you get back minus a £10 + VAT admin fee) against SGS @ £120 (which you get back in full).

So, for an occasional user such as myself, it looks like SGS might just edge it! Incidentally, I tried three local suppliers for SGS, and while their refill charges only differed by a couple of quid, their deposits varied considerably, from £120 up to £144.

 

[Paul D63]

120 plus vat is 144. But I didnt think deposits were supposed to be subject to vat?.

Yes, sorry, should have stipulated - those all the all-inclusive prices, with the VAT added. Seems to be that the SGS dealers all charge VAT on the deposits. Hobbyweld don't?

 

[Agautosport]

Interesting comments here concerning the various options in the gas market!
Firstly SGS gases are filled to 240 BAr when hot and they cool to around 200 BAR.
Remember Hobbyweld is owned by Air Products who are in turn owned by an American conglomerate whereas SGS Gases is a British family owned business built from nothing and founded in 2010.
There are rent free cylinders advertised on eBay and Facebook Marketplace that use foreign, Polish I think, regulators, these cylinders may well be difficult to get filled and I believe they are lower pressure that most.
SGS Gases will always refund 100% of the deposit even if the invoice has been lost by way of a direct credit.
That being said it is always a good idea to keep the original invoice to make future transactions easier.
There is also a cashback for forum members as previously mentioned.
Hope this all makes sense and is helpfull.

Alan SGS Gases Ltd

 

[Paul D63]

Yep, cheers Alan - looks like I'll be going with your option, and have already been in touch directly, as you'll know!

 

[Popcorn]

You don't pay a deposit on a SGS bottle, you buy it that's why it appears to be more expensive.
If you look around you can pick them up secondhand and then just pay for a refill at your local suppliers.

 

[hotponyshoes]

120 plus vat is 144. But I didnt think deposits were supposed to be subject to vat?.

I'm not sure what the exact situation is with welding gas bottles?

I could hire you a trailer for a weekend for £100+vat
I can take a £5000 deposit on the trailer against its safe return.
The rules for that say 'I do not have to account for vat'
Providing, the deposit is either returned in full or kept to compensate for damage/loss.

I guess the 'have to' part means I could charge vat on the deposit if I wanted?

I'm not sure if returning the deposit less an 'admin' charge accounts for returning it in full or not?

I'm also not sure what happens if you damage a single wheel on the trailer and I just keep £120 out of the £5k deposit?

If you are vat registered and get a gas bottle where you pay vat on the deposit you could claim that back but I presume you'll have to re-pay it when you take the bottle back and get the deposit back?

 

[addjunkie]

I'm not sure what the exact situation is with welding gas bottles?

I could hire you a trailer for a weekend for £100+vat
I can take a £5000 deposit on the trailer against its safe return.
The rules for that say 'I do not have to account for vat'
Providing, the deposit is either returned in full or kept to compensate for damage/loss.

I guess the 'have to' part means I could charge vat on the deposit if I wanted?

I'm not sure if returning the deposit less an 'admin' charge accounts for returning it in full or not?

I'm also not sure what happens if you damage a single wheel on the trailer and I just keep £120 out of the £5k deposit?

If you are vat registered and get a gas bottle where you pay vat on the deposit you could claim that back but I presume you'll have to re-pay it when you take the bottle back and get the deposit back?

Im not sure of the rules….there are two dealers of SGS close to me. One charges vat on the deposit, the other doesn't. The one who does is a national type firm, with mostly business customer base, the other is a locally owned business with a 4 shops with a mix of trade and private customers.

 

[Smallfry]

There's also the sharp practice of reducing the returnable deposit as the years pass.
Shoddy business. I'll never deal with an outlet that does that trick.

I know its not welding, but Calor Gas have done this for many years. They also refuse point blank to return any deposit due without the original cylinder rental paperwork.
This was because the good old boys would nick your cylinders, use the gas, then return the cylinders for a full refund. Win, win for them.

 

[Smallfry]

There seems to a lot of variation in fill pressures too. Even allowing for your own gauges being inaccurate, this should not vary from the quoted fill pressure from ANY supplier, but it does

 

[addjunkie]

There seems to a lot of variation in fill pressures too. Even allowing for your own gauges being inaccurate, this should not vary from the quoted fill pressure from ANY supplier, but it does

Temperature. Look at the combined gas law. The gas is compressed in to-the bottle, pumping gas increases the temperature. Stop pumping when said pressure is reached it cools, therefore the pressure reduces a bit.

 

[JOEPRO]

Here is an example of how to work out the real gas cost based on what suppliers are telling you.

in my case it was significantly cheaper to use a local autoparts store VS Hobbyweld. (I am in rip off NI!)

Hobbyweld 9L @ 137 bar = 1.28m3 volume. £78.99 refill cost = £61.71 per m3 Argon.

Autoparts store 10L @ 200 bar = 2.07m3 volume. £35.75 refill cost = £17.18 per m3 Argon.

 

[Dragnet]

I have also been leaning towards SGS, I just wish my local supplier did a bigger bottle! The Hobbyweld fanfare about 300 bar 20l only means the same volume of gas as in the SGS 30l. I'm not concerned about size as it'll either go in the holder in my new-to-me welder, or on the gas bottle trolley I used to have a big Air Products cylinder in. My nearest Hobbyweld supplier has an enormous deposit, which I queried with Hobbyweld and they seemed surprised and said they'd look into it. The cost difference between SGS a mile away and Hobbyweld some tens of miles away for a first time buyer getting ~6m3 of gas is £258 for SGS and £384 for Hobbyweld (inc. VAT). Of that, the refill is £102 for SGS and £124.50 for Hobbyweld.

 

[mike weldrecike]

Don't forget that with your 1st bott;e of SGS you can as a forum member clame a few quid back Via Alan (a member and owner of SGS).

where are Alan's contact details? Can he confirm the fill pressure?

 

[Cobbler]

See post 26, Agautosport is the person

 

[Paul D63]

Well, just to update this thread, and info for anyone else considering options. I went with SGS in the end, for a couple of reasons: the local Hobbyweld agent never even got back to me with a price, so not a good omen. The next nearest Hobbyweld agent is about 8 miles away, which in itself, wasn't a problem. But SGS have two agents within a couple of miles, which improves my options for them.

As mentioned in an earlier post, the Hobbyweld was slightly more expensive than SGS, but with a quoted higher fill pressure, it worked out fairly even. But then Hobbyweld keep a tenner (+ VAT) of your deposit on return (admin fee), SGS return the full amount. Another tick for SGS. Then there was also the possibility of the initial SGS forum discount on your first fill. So, all things seemed to be pointing me to SGS.

And I'm pleased to report that I think it was the right decision for me! Got the SGS bottle from the agent a mile away, which was also the cheapest. Reported my purchase directly to Alan at SGS with a copy invoice, and am pleased to say the cashback was taken care of promptly without fuss. And... when I put my gauges on the bottle, it showed exactly 200 bar! Which is more than some have said they got in their SGS bottles. I don't know if my gauge is accurate, but I do seem to remember that it never showed 230 bar on the full BOC bottles I had previously, so either way, I'm happy.

 

[Bobupndown]

Here is an example of how to work out the real gas cost based on what suppliers are telling you.

in my case it was significantly cheaper to use a local autoparts store VS Hobbyweld. (I am in rip off NI!)

Hobbyweld 9L @ 137 bar = 1.28m3 volume. £78.99 refill cost = £61.71 per m3 Argon.

Autoparts store 10L @ 200 bar = 2.07m3 volume. £35.75 refill cost = £17.18 per m3 Argon.

Where did you get the bottle that the autoparts store refills in the first place? Did you have to buy or rent it initially? Is it Fyffes by any chance?

I have a Hobbyweld 9L cylinder and it lasts me ages as I don't weld a lot but 1/2 price refill is interesting.

 

[JOEPRO]

Where did you get the bottle that the autoparts store refills in the first place? Did you have to buy or rent it initially? Is it Fyffes by any chance?

I have a Hobbyweld 9L cylinder and it lasts me ages as I don't weld a lot but 1/2 price refill is interesting.

I got it from RT Autoparts in Cookstown. This is a picture of the bottle itself I believe the gas distributer is also based in NI so may have more places able to supply nearer you