Honda EX4000 generator.

[Chippie]

Many yrs ago, I worked with a mechanical tech who had this Kawasaki gen that he he was working on….the Avr was goosed, I looked at it went hmmmm…..then took a hammer to it…
I broke off all the resin around it, reverse enginereed it and made a new one…worked well enough to avoid being skipped…

 

[Cato]

finally got someone to test my Honda EB1900........
turns out it's just the three diodes in the reg......
which is a solid block of resin........found a new one at £200.......
will buy a cheapy then bin it when it goes bad........
I wont ever buy another Honda generator.....
PS it's like new and it's done little, it's just for back up at the house.......

Might be worth you trying @GRW 's recommendation to see if they can supply something? Generator Guru

 

[Cato]

Happy days! Let us know the outcome?

OK, a bit more 'in the room' this morning.

So, straight from the red + and white - I have 60-ish volts at 50 Hz fluctuating. Direct from the socket outlet I have the same 50-ish Hz but with around 0.5v. I'm not sure that it's worth testing/probing too much more with those figures, the next thing will be to see if I can get and AVR at anything like reasonable money and then put it to the customer.

I heard back from Generator Guru with the ins and outs. Basically they give you a discount which increases as you spend does, list you on the approved repairer page and you have access to technical support. As they don't charge anything there's nothing to lose really.

 

[Chippie]

I’m not sure I follow….
‘I have 60 volts at 50 hz on the red white wires……. Nothing from the socket..’

can you answer the following?
have you got a dc ohms reading across the Live and Neutral at the socket?
Lifting off the connections to the slip rings, have you got a dc ohms reading on the brush box?

The above tests will check the integrity of most of the alternator parts….

I have had failure to generate due to the wires that are terminated to the slips rings corroding, so the rotor (field..) is open circuit….No amount of flashing will revive it…

If the rotor is electrically intact, you can inject a dc voltage into the brush box, ( disconnect the connector at the avr input side…multipole connector..) and check to see if you get ac at the socket…

 

[GRW]

OK, a bit more 'in the room' this morning.

So, straight from the red + and white - I have 60-ish volts at 50 Hz fluctuating. Direct from the socket outlet I have the same 50-ish Hz but with around 0.5v. I'm not sure that it's worth testing/probing too much more with those figures, the next thing will be to see if I can get and AVR at anything like reasonable money and then put it to the customer.

I heard back from Generator Guru with the ins and outs. Basically they give you a discount which increases as you spend does, list you on the approved repairer page and you have access to technical support. As they don't charge anything there's nothing to lose really.

60-ish volts is very encouraging! The fluctuating frequency is as you'll know probably a gummed carb pilot gallery - some running might clear it, if not carb cleaner in an Ultrasonic did mine the power of good.

60v is pretty much half the expected voltage. Hmm. It's not a CTE dedicated 110v only set is it? If yes, you'd only get 55-60v L-E, & you'd need to measure L-L to get nominal 120v.
If it's a dual voltage, then for sure you've lost half your output at least.

If it's dual voltage 230v/110, I'd check the output voltage on both - the contacts in the changeover switch (assuming it has one) can corrode & give poor contact, also of course the breakers/thermal trips.

However as you say - with just 60v - you've more than 1 fault by the sound of it?

 

[Cato]

I’m not sure I follow….
‘I have 60 volts at 50 hz on the red white wires……. Nothing from the socket..’

I was referring to the pic I posted earlier. Basically direct to/before AVR I have 60v 50 Hz. However the output at the 110v socket (post AVR) is chuff all.

60-ish volts is very encouraging! The fluctuating frequency is as you'll know probably a gummed carb pilot gallery - some running might clear it, if not carb cleaner in an Ultrasonic did mine the power of good.

60v is pretty much half the expected voltage. Hmm. It's not a CTE dedicated 110v only set is it? If yes, you'd only get 55-60v L-E, & you'd need to measure L-L to get nominal 120v.
If it's a dual voltage, then for sure you've lost half your output at least.

If it's dual voltage 230v/110, I'd check the output voltage on both - the contacts in the changeover switch (assuming it has one) can corrode & give poor contact, also of course the breakers/thermal trips.

However as you say - with just 60v - you've more than 1 fault by the sound of it?

It's dual voltage with a toggle change over. Everything is proper manky due to age and then standing so there's going to be a fair bit of loss across everything I'd imagine. So at this stage I'm looking at the AVR being goosed and some serious stripping and cleaning at best, with all sorts of more expensive possibilities. Given it's age I'm certainly not the first person in there

The trouble with going too much further is cost to the customer really. It's a thirty + year old 4 kVa generator a new half decent replacement will be £500 - ish. Before labour he's looking at £200-£300 in bits for the AVR and starter battery. Add on labour for cleaning contacts/switches/connections (see earlier photo) and you're well past the cost of a new generator.

 

[GRW]

I was referring to the pic I posted earlier. Basically direct to/before AVR I have 60v 50 Hz. However the output at the 110v socket (post AVR) is chuff all.


It's dual voltage with a toggle change over. Everything is proper manky due to age and then standing so there's going to be a fair bit of loss across everything I'd imagine. So at this stage I'm looking at the AVR being goosed and some serious stripping and cleaning at best, with all sorts of more expensive possibilities. Given it's age I'm certainly not the first person in there

The trouble with going too much further is cost to the customer really. It's a thirty + year old 4 kVa generator a new half decent replacement will be £500 - ish. Before labour he's looking at £200-£300 in bits for the AVR and starter battery. Add on labour for cleaning contacts/switches/connections (see earlier photo) and you're well past the cost of a new generator.

Always the problem - running out of it being worth the cost. You can fix anything pretty much - its whether it's worth it.

I've toyed with the idea of picking up cheap no output portable Gens & tinkering as a sideline/hobby.... overall I think you'd get lucky easy/cheap fixes on a couple & make a few quid out of it - but overall its unlikely to be worth it purely on a money basis.

The leccy start ones though cost a couple of hundred plus over recoil start though, so you've a bit more wiggle room on that one maybe?

(Round here, quite a few old folks have a wee genny like the EX4000 for backup at their rural home - and with age the ability to pull start goes...
So the leccy start ones do have a market

 

[Cato]

Always the problem - running out of it being worth the cost. You can fix anything pretty much - its whether it's worth it.

I've toyed with the idea of picking up cheap no output portable Gens & tinkering as a sideline/hobby.... overall I think you'd get lucky easy/cheap fixes on a couple & make a few quid out of it - but overall its unlikely to be worth it purely on a money basis.

The leccy start ones though cost a couple of hundred plus over recoil start though, so you've a bit more wiggle room on that one maybe?

(Round here, quite a few old folks have a wee genny like the EX4000 for backup at their rural home - and with age the ability to pull start goes...
So the leccy start ones do have a market

Agreed on the value but I suspect this is an ex-hire machine looking at it, and it's been sitting for 2 years at least gathering mank and condensation.

So as a bare minimum it'll be AVR, battery and brushes in parts so say a conservative £300. Then you'll have the labour to do all that plus strip everything with a contact and connection, clean them off/out and rebuild it Even nose down 4rse up that's a day at £45 ph so £660 in total. You can get an electric start 'silent' in 4 kVa for £700 - £1,000 brand new with a 2 year warranty.

On a tinkering basis it may well be worth it as you wouldn't have an hourly rate to cover per se and you could legitimately use second hand bits without the issue of consumer law and unrealistic customer expectations. Even breaking them for known good (basic testing) parts would probably turn a reasonable profit I'd have thought.

Even if he said just scrap it I wouldn't be able to do much beyond weigh it in. A Honda GX engine is worth a few bob, but as a business even that would be a risky sale unlikely to be worth the time to strip and potential hassle.

 

[GRW]

Agreed on the value but I suspect this is an ex-hire machine looking at it, and it's been sitting for 2 years at least gathering mank and condensation.

So as a bare minimum it'll be AVR, battery and brushes in parts so say a conservative £300. Then you'll have the labour to do all that plus strip everything with a contact and connection, clean them off/out and rebuild it Even nose down 4rse up that's a day at £45 ph so £660 in total. You can get an electric start 'silent' in 4 kVa for £700 - £1,000 brand new with a 2 year warranty.

On a tinkering basis it may well be worth it as you wouldn't have an hourly rate to cover per se and you could legitimately use second hand bits without the issue of consumer law and unrealistic customer expectations. Even breaking them for known good (basic testing) parts would probably turn a reasonable profit I'd have thought.

Even if he said just scrap it I wouldn't be able to do much beyond weigh it in. A Honda GX engine is worth a few bob, but as a business even that would be a risky sale unlikely to be worth the time to strip and potential hassle.

Unusual to be a petrol hire machine with leccy start ???
If it is though, then there's a good chance the engine is "tired" as well - so your 4kva, 3.2kw (guessing it's a GX240?) is likely unattainable without a (waste of time) engine fettle.
Yep - really it's a boat anchor by the sound of it (shame, cos the Honda driven stuff is good bits of kit by-&-large)

 

[Cato]

Unusual to be a petrol hire machine with leccy start ???
If it is though, then there's a good chance the engine is "tired" as well - so your 4kva, 3.2kw (guessing it's a GX240?) is likely unattainable without a (waste of time) engine fettle.
Yep - really it's a boat anchor by the sound of it (shame, cos the Honda driven stuff is good bits of kit by-&-large)

It's got "ARB" on the top of it, and they're an events hire company so I'd imagine all their stuff would be silent electric start. As you say, it's a safe bet that the engine is well past the first flush of youth.

 

[Cato]

Unusual to be a petrol hire machine with leccy start ???
If it is though, then there's a good chance the engine is "tired" as well - so your 4kva, 3.2kw (guessing it's a GX240?) is likely unattainable without a (waste of time) engine fettle.
Yep - really it's a boat anchor by the sound of it (shame, cos the Honda driven stuff is good bits of kit by-&-large)

I gave him the bad news today that it's not really worth doing as the parts and labour will be £400 - £500. He said "That's fine, go ahead and do it anyway." Just shows you should never assume what a customer is going to say.

Just got to try and track down parts for a generator that's getting on for 30 years old now.

 

[Cato]

Well I got the generator back on the bench and started a bit more in depth look and test.

As mentioned before, I had 50v at the brushes so I started at that side of things. Took the AVR off out of the way and confirmed 50v at the brushes, checked the L1 - L2 0v, same for L3 - L4 (They're marked L, G, R, W on this BTW.)

Stopped the generator and took the brushes off, worn but no sign of damage etc. Checked the resistance between slip rings and it's a dead short. I'm guessing that'll be a cascade which took out the AVR at least, although I don't know of a way to bench test the AVR with any degree of accuracy.

So at this stage it doesn't matter what the customer wants, reality bites. I can't find anywhere that supplies a stator and windings or even a complete alternator for this. I could strip it and measure up, or try to find the original specs online somewhere but I imagine it's going to get into four figures for that sort of parts and labour.

 

[GRW]

Well I got the generator back on the bench and started a bit more in depth look and test.

As mentioned before, I had 50v at the brushes so I started at that side of things. Took the AVR off out of the way and confirmed 50v at the brushes, checked the L1 - L2 0v, same for L3 - L4 (They're marked L, G, R, W on this BTW.)

Stopped the generator and took the brushes off, worn but no sign of damage etc. Checked the resistance between slip rings and it's a dead short. I'm guessing that'll be a cascade which took out the AVR at least, although I don't know of a way to bench test the AVR with any degree of accuracy.

So at this stage it doesn't matter what the customer wants, reality bites. I can't find anywhere that supplies a stator and windings or even a complete alternator for this. I could strip it and measure up, or try to find the original specs online somewhere but I imagine it's going to get into four figures for that sort of parts and labour.

Could you use a 12v battery to "replace" the AVR? If there's a short then things should bog the engine & produce the magic smoke & that's that

 

[Cato]

Could you use a 12v battery to "replace" the AVR? If there's a short then things should bog the engine & produce the magic smoke & that's that

Could do I guess, but it's a pretty black and white set of results. I'll see if I can find a price for a rewind and/or any replacement bits. So far I've found a place in the USA who can supply the AVR for £150-ish plus all the taxes and shipping, and a place in Japan who can supply a stator for $500 plus taxes and shipping.

It's scrap basically and I'm losing both patience and interest as there's clearly a page or two missing from the story I'm getting. It's clearly not a case of "it was working when I put it away" as it looks like a cascade to me. Whichever bit shorted first the rest followed in short order. I suppose it's possible that there was some corrosion or condensation somewhere when it was first started after layup, but that seems a lot of damage.

 

[GRW]

Could do I guess, but it's a pretty black and white set of results. I'll see if I can find a price for a rewind and/or any replacement bits. So far I've found a place in the USA who can supply the AVR for £150-ish plus all the taxes and shipping, and a place in Japan who can supply a stator for $500 plus taxes and shipping.

It's scrap basically and I'm losing both patience and interest as there's clearly a page or two missing from the story I'm getting. It's clearly not a case of "it was working when I put it away" as it looks like a cascade to me. Whichever bit shorted first the rest followed in short order. I suppose it's possible that there was some corrosion or condensation somewhere when it was first started after layup, but that seems a lot of damage.

Yep. Repairing that, with that damage is a no-go.
I suspect also that you might need to be careful that if you had to change the rotor, that it was the correct taper.
I'm pretty sure that you can come across 3 types in the UK. Japanese Taper (Japan built complete sets - the EX should be one of those), British Taper (5/8ths or something) (pretty much any Honda or other with a European origin alternator & built/assembled in UK or Europe).... but also there used to be some all-Italian assembled machines here that had a different Italian Taper fitment .

If the EX had/has a British Taper, then it'd be far easier & cheaper to buy a complete 2-pole Capacitive Meccalte or similar & nail that on.... but I suspect it'll be Japanese taper

 

[Cato]

Yep. Repairing that, with that damage is a no-go.
I suspect also that you might need to be careful that if you had to change the rotor, that it was the correct taper.
I'm pretty sure that you can come across 3 types in the UK. Japanese Taper (Japan built complete sets - the EX should be one of those), British Taper (5/8ths or something) (pretty much any Honda or other with a European origin alternator & built/assembled in UK or Europe).... but also there used to be some all-Italian assembled machines here that had a different Italian Taper fitment .

If the EX had/has a British Taper, then it'd be far easier & cheaper to buy a complete 2-pole Capacitive Meccalte or similar & nail that on.... but I suspect it'll be Japanese taper

The only way I'd get into that level of work would be to use genuine bits and he'd have to pay for them before I ordered them. It's not going to happen though as they don't seem to be available anywhere. Not really that surprising as it's 25 years old (found a Manuf'd 1998 data plate) and things have moved on quite a bit since then.

My only interest in it now is what actually happened to it. It's worn but not that far, so it could be something dodgy plugged into it, a spike/backfeed, cascade, corrosion, I suppose even something got into it between the stator and armature. Bugs me not seeing some clear sign, but I'll live with it.

I'll box it back up over the weekend and he can take it away with his pump on Monday.