making dies for pressing cups

[DAPPH]

Can anyone give me a bit of help / advise please ? .


I want to try and make some cupped grease deflectors/shields for the cross shaft for my ancient Sphere lathe out of 0.5 to 1.0 mm galv or tin plate .

The final end produce should look like a grease or oil seal carrier without the rubber on it , they will be lightly pressed in to a cast iron housing that holds lipped greased open taper bearing sets.


Size is 3.5 inches across by 1/2 " deep . I think I should be able to use my 12 tonne hydraulic press to form them using home made lathe turned forms .

My quest for help is:-
Would I be better turning a simple pan shaped form set , press out pans , then make the shaft hole and set the depth of the deflector using the lathe ?
OR
Should I put the shaft's hole in a blank plate , allow a spigot on the bottom form to locate it into a recess in the top form then press it & use the lathe with a threaded shaft & securing nut to turn the depth accurately .

I can see advantages and disadvantages of each method .

Your thoughts please gents.

 

[dan.taylor.1]

Do you mean a 1/2" dish? I make them for candle cups with a hardwood form an uncle lathed up for me (male and female that the plate sits between) and form them in my vice, in fact a sharp rap with a hammer would make them in 0.8/9 with ease.

Dan

 

[DAPPH]

Yes similar forms , but somewhat precision & eminently repeatable to make the deflectors as they :-

Have to be a precision pressed fit into the cast iron casing without fouling the taper roller bearing .
The 1/2" bowl sides must be a 90 degree vertical to the floor of the pan . The whole pan floor must be in a flat plane, no curves , dishing or twist

Think of a shoe polish tin lid 3" in diameter with a 1 & 1/2" central hole in it & no rolled lip on it .
There is very little clearance over/around/ above the taper roller bearing in it's housing or around the cross shaft at either end of the shaft where it comes through the deflector plate .
You can see an inverted deflector in the RH top of the picture , between the yellow container and the bearing cap .

 

[shedfull]

Have you thought of spinning these

It's a wikky link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_spinning

 

[Paul.]

I would fabricate them, these delicate jobs are a speciality of mine, a piece of 3" thin wall tube with a disc welded on, then cut out the 1.5" hole with a hole saw afterwards, if 3" tube is hard to come by then roll a flat strip,
This is something similar made from 3" stainless tube, just needs a hole in it

 

[outofthefire]

Try a basic male and female die made out of plywood you will probably only have a handful of goes but you will be able to test whether your press is up to it, failing that i'd go with tig paul. Spinning is a skill that isn't as easy as it looks you also need a spinning lathe.

 

[DAPPH]

Thanks guys , I'd love to be able to say , " Paul make me three of these cups " , but I can't get another mortgage on my home because of my age .

Seriously Paul ,
Our bungalow was struck by lightening causing several things to die , we are having a difficult time with the insurers , so dosh is tight at the present time till the repairs are completed and the claim settled .


The wooden forms idea , I think I may have to make two or three sets that do things in stages . I've a fair bit of thin galv plate to hand after dismantling a lightening struck electric oven & I can also use a few tin cans to see if the idea works in the first place..
If it comes out reasonable I'll make the form sets in 1" steel plate or 5 or so inches dia cut round bar .
I'm off to play on eBay for prices just so I can mull things over whilst i try and make the wooden moulds
I may even try and make some cast aluminum dies ...you have certainly given me food for thought but if any one else is reading .... I'm still hungry

Having had a quick re-look at my picture .. I wonder if ..I can buy a steel bodied git seal and carefully remove the leather insert & spring using the lathe to cut out the unwanted bit?

I will also be checking out oil seals as well this may be the simple cost effective solution for I can always carefully drill a seep/ grease weep hole in the seal and place the hole at the bottom of the fit.

 

[AdrianH]

DAPPH, What sizes are you after, nothing to do it with so not helping here, but you have mentioned 3 inch and 3.5 inch dia.

I was also thinking of large bearing seals etc.

As Shedfull said try some metal spinning.
I did do a bit of metal spinning once with aluminium with sort of success, used an aluminium former.


Adrian

 

[DAPPH]

Adrian , thanks for commenting .
I have not yet measured the deflector plate accurately as the lathe is still fully assembled after the quick strip & clean I gave it in September ,when I took the photo..

I hope to do the measuring a few days after the builders have finished making my man cupboard moisture , rain , storm & cold resistant ... the lathe is under a tied down cover inside the part finished garage refurbishment .

Please run your eye over this idea and feel free to make comments .

I have a bit of an understanding of spinning using a lathe , I've seen it done with brass , aluminium , pewter and tin plate . , though I've never ever done it myself .

I can get thin ally plate if needed but would prefer the thin steel .

I can see how I can form the outer part of the case using a tube or turned lip to follow , it's how the internal lip is formed that I've not given much thought to.

Is this the order of march so to speak ?

I suppose you use half a dozen or more screw /bolts to fix a thin sheet of steel with a central hole say one inch smaller than the required inner diameter over a correctly turned hole , then set it up centrally on the face plate .

Perhaps using the tool post as the fulcrum point and lever the metal in the hole with a round nosed /ball on a 1/2 -3/4 round steel bar ( I have something I can make a spoon shape with ..old heavy caravan steady winder handle ) whilst the lathe is running at a slow / medium or high speed ( I think low would be better because of the torque available , is this correct?) . Now gently ease the metal into the shaped hole as the lathe turns

Once the internal lip is formed , use the lathe to turn a large disk say 1 inch bigger than the outside diameter of the deflector out of the thin plate
now remove it from the face plate & fit it onto a dolly . The dolly being turned to size & so that there is a neoprene anti slip washer between the dolly and the thin plate . Use a 1/4 inch thick steel clamping plate & a 12 mm centre bolt to clamp it to the dolly .
Again use the tool post and lever to form the outer lip to the dolly , when it is fully formed turn the lip to the correct depth whilst it is still on the dolly .

Lastly take the deflector off the dolly and after fitting the thing in reverse turn the internal lip to the correct size using the the three jaw chuck to centralize things. Obviously this could also have been done whilst on the wooden former on the face plate by reversing it so the newly formed lip was facing outwards & then turned of to the correct length of lip .

 

[AdrianH]

Hi DAPPH;
I can only really describe what I did, If you look at the former there is a countersunk hole in the centre., the unit was mounted in my 3 jaw chuck, a metal disk with a small hole just for the point was then placed against this with my rotating centre then forcing the disc against the former and into the countersunk hole.

I used something like a 4 foot long piece of 1/2 inch bar. Had a rounded and polished end on it and then as you said used the tool post as a lever point. I had the lathe running at high speed typically on mine over 3,000 rpm, but it also has a three HP motor so has plenty of torque. I did the outer section first as that help it stay against the former and I could trim off any excess. Then formed in the inner depression, it does not go 9- degrees back on it self that one as I could not get the bar in there. When I was happy I could remove the tail stock and the formed aluminium would hold it self against the former. I could then cut the hole in the centre with a normal lathe tool.

Now my warnings, I did it three times, 1st went fine, made the exhaust can cover with no problems. Second was a mere, nearly smashed my wrist and bent the 1/2 inch bar as I slipped and caught the bar into one of the jaws on the main chuck at 3,000 rpm. A week later I did the third and finished it, not done any since, but to be honest not had the need.

A former fastend through the back of a face plate should be safer then how I did it, not much to catch on! Do not try to get the bends quickly it is a gradual process hence why done at speed, use some form of lubrication, I tried soft soap.

Be careful

It must be a very close thing to either do as spinning or press, you have to make the formers for both when you only need a couple of parts.

Adrian

 

[awemawson]

Why not turn them from the solid? You say that you need three - well you'll need to turn a male and female form of similar size so that's two similar sized steel chunks. Different if you are going into production of hundreds.

 

[mike os]

For 3 I think you should either turn or fabricate as above making formers will take longer, and cost more... by the time you make 2 formers you have already made 2/3 of what you need

 

[outofthefire]

A lathe designed for turning metal is not suitable for spinning, apart from ruining its accuracy the headstock is not designed for the forces that spinning puts on it.

 

[AdrianH]

A lathe designed for turning metal is not suitable for spinning, apart from ruining its accuracy the headstock is not designed for the forces that spinning puts on it.

I could agree for plain bearing lathes, but those using taper bearings and designed for speeds, your myfords and the older lathes perhaps not if being done on a regular basis, but the Op was talking here of thin materials such as tin or thin galv steel from approx 0.5mm to a max of 1mm thick, it does not take that much force, could be less then a heavy cut.

On the comment about turning from solid, again trying to turn and part off down to a thickness of around 20 thou, not sure I would like to try that with something around 3 inch diameter. Yes it is possible.

Adrian

 

[DAPPH]

@ Adrian ,
Thanks for coming back .
The OD is 3" dia with a 1/2 " lip , the ID is 2 & 1/8 " dia with a 1/4 " lip , material is x 1.0 mm thick pressed mild steel , I may be able to go to 1.5 mm thick but clearance is very limited due to a precision retaining thrust washer pressing on the inner race of the taper bearings , keeps the taper roller carriage /cage on place & is almost touching the faces where the deflector is pressed into .

@ Out of the fire , thanks for the comment , here's how things stand for me .


My lathe has two very nice adjustable 3 x 2 x 1.5 "wide " Timkin headstock taper roller bearings fortunately . It is a 1943 or so British made Sphere 10 F similar to the Craftsman Atlas 10 F of the same period .

The forces I'd be using will be like butterfly kisses compared to trying to turn the cups/deflectors and like has already been said it is going to be very difficult trying to turn them to almost tin can thickness all over , " Is not going to be helped with my skills on the lathe ) .

A while back I tried to turn fourteen 7.3 mm x 10 mm long ferrules out of 8 mm copper gas pipe some without a former of solder & a nail to support the tube & some with , ... by the time I'd got through just over a metre of the tube I had my fourteen perfect ferrules
After several attempts at other thin walled turning using a stock bar I came to the conclusion that thin turning is not so easy on a basic thread cutting lathe , even if you use it in semi auto mode & have stops set up . I reckon I could do it with a decent CNC set up though.

I have experimented with using a 1/ 763 th of a inch screw cutting feed ( lubed with WD40 ) to try getting some 1" aluminum stock down to a 10 mm dia ,six mm long spigot with a 1 .5 mm thin wall to see if I could do it ( success ) but as I'm now 64 I don't think I've enough time left to try turning out the deflectors /cups as it took so long

 

[awemawson]

"On the comment about turning from solid, again trying to turn and part off down to a thickness of around 20 thou, not sure I would like to try that with something around 3 inch diameter. Yes it is possible."

Well you don't do you. You have three blanks cut from bar stock that's been turned to finished diameter. Face a blank, reverse it in the jaws, face to exact length and bore to inside diameter - no need to part off. If it's a fussy job, clock in on the 4 jaw chuck, otherwise if your three jaw is reasonable, don't bother !

 

[Wendelspanswick]

A lathe designed for turning metal is not suitable for spinning, apart from ruining its accuracy the headstock is not designed for the forces that spinning puts on it.

I agree with the above, a place I worked at ruined a perfectly good Harrison by trying to spin 30 small hemispheres for a chandelier. 100mm discs of steel sheet, 0.9mm thick, spun over a 50mm diameter sphere.
All because they wouldn't pay to buy them in at £1.20 a cup!
Completely knackered the Gamet bearings and turned a nice lathe into a pile of scrap!

 

[DrDeAtH]

What about using a suitability sized engine core plug and modifying to suit?

 

[DAPPH]

From the ones I've replaced over the years they are going to be way too thick and not big enough in the major diameter , though I'm willing to look at it if you can suggest an engine vehicle with a big enough plug .

Earlier on tonight I've was checking out the cost of buying 4" MS stock bar to turn down to size & then turn to 1/2 " thick or so as per the idea of turning to size then working from the inside as in post #16 ... Who knows how long I'd be with my trusty SANDVIK hacksaw and , with my Blacker & Decker workmate MK2 trying to chop my way through those thicknesses..

Knowing how it was with the thin wall copper and aluminium tube I mentioned earlier it's sods law that the cutter would dig in and tear it all apart on the final cuts .

That's what I'd originally I'd considered but rejected it due to my lack of skills & disabilities , I'd need zillions of practice blanks to work with before I got it right I'm sure.

Waaah..... I'll just have to shopping in the post office with a shotgun and crash helmet at those prices , also see if there is still some Oofle dust in the , "Sooty's magicians set " that I got for Crimbo ..everything is possible with lots of Oofle dust .

 

[langy]

Can anyone give me a bit of help / advise please ? .


I want to try and make some cupped grease deflectors/shields for the cross shaft for my ancient Sphere lathe out of 0.5 to 1.0 mm galv or tin plate .

The final end produce should look like a grease or oil seal carrier without the rubber on it , they will be lightly pressed in to a cast iron housing that holds lipped greased open taper bearing sets.


Size is 3.5 inches across by 1/2 " deep . I think I should be able to use my 12 tonne hydraulic press to form them using home made lathe turned forms .

My quest for help is:-
Would I be better turning a simple pan shaped form set , press out pans , then make the shaft hole and set the depth of the deflector using the lathe ?
OR
Should I put the shaft's hole in a blank plate , allow a spigot on the bottom form to locate it into a recess in the top form then press it & use the lathe with a threaded shaft & securing nut to turn the depth accurately .

I can see advantages and disadvantages of each method .

Your thoughts please gents.

I would get some 3.5" thick walled tube, weld a cap on and turn to size, cheap & easy