MIG LEVEL 3 PIPE 3268-03

[Jelly_Sheffield]

The public embarrassment in management meetings is now called bullying

Singling someone out and tearing them down is definitely bullying.

But there's still a place for holding people accountable for their errors or poor attitude, especially when they're having a detrimental effect on others.

The skill is in keeping any public criticisms, short, factual and unemotive (even if you're very annoyed), but even then it's possible to go too far.

I still remember early in my career sitting in on a board meeting as a technical specialist when one of the senior managers who was presenting tried to wriggle out of a very stupid decision they made, and the MD looked straight at the bloke and said:

"Oh give it up, we all know you're lying, and [Ops Director] will be having a conversation afterwards with you about that. Now moving on, what's the next item on the agenda?"

Despite being entirely professional, that felt like an inappropriate public show of force, which hit far, far harder than if he'd torn strips off the guy, shouting and screaming.

and though it may work to refocus some, I suspect proper coaching and quiet respectful guidance is far more successful.

I would tend to agree, especially with young people who are still building their confidence.

It's only really fair to give major criticism in a group setting, when either:

- the person on the recieving end has had such negative impact on the group in question that other employees need to know it's being dealt with, in order to maintain staff morale,

- the group is made up of sufficiently close colleagues that it's more private than public.

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

It wasnt till years later and I was a bit higher up the pecking order that I learned there were really two schemes. The 3 year to then be an office based engineer type…slow progress. And the 10 year fast track ear marked for stardom scheme.

That figures with my experience contracting for O&G.

When I was dealing with grad and fast-track schemes (in the Waste Industry), it was apparent that the HR controlled graduate scheme consistently selected people who didn't make the cut for the fast track scheme (that was intended to follow on from it).

Most of the fast trackers were originally hired to back fill operations positions, dropped in at the deep end with a bit of management support, and marked themselves out by being both good with people and able to grasp the commercial implications of their work.

Despite that HR was steadfast that we should only recruit people with 1st's from Russel Group uni's onto the grad scheme, and it would be unfair to ask them questions about soft-skills or financial management because it wasn't part of their degree.

Big engineering is about getting an eclectic selection of various skills to interact as a team, not always easy. Because almost every engineer always knows best!

Nicely put.

The chap who promoted me into my first management position called it "earning your family allowance", because it really can feel like being a parent refereeing between squabbling siblings at times, especially when you have two people with overlapping experience of the same discipline in a team.

I do enjoy using the phrase "define best" to derail people who are being particularly single minded about their preferred alternative.

At least in my field "least worst" is generally a better aim-point.

 

[addjunkie]

Most of the fast trackers were originally hired to back fill operations positions, dropped in at the deep end with a bit of management support, and marked themselves out by being both good with people and able to grasp the commercial implications of their work.

Despite that HR was steadfast that we should only recruit people with 1st's from Russel Group uni's onto the grad scheme, and it would be unfair to ask them questions about soft-skills or financial management because it wasn't part of their degree.

Human Remains used to give us a set of interview questions. For the people stuff….nothing out of the ordinary, Give us an example of xyz that you have delivered….

As an ops person I used to find these hard to answer my self at interview, but eventually learnt what they were looking for. Also as an Ops person often had one of the “fast track drop ins” opposite me or worse still above me.

But now I no longer have to worry about any of this stuff. Im now heading into year 7 with out a real job!

 

[Munkul]

There's a great quote from a speech given to a bunch of ChemEng students by a VP from Dow:

"Every year during hiring I meet with a selection of young people who honestly believe their academic knowledge and ability to earn a top ranked degree entitles them to a well paid job...

They are bitterly disappointed to discover that in the real world no one wants them.

Because what they fail to understand is that THIS IS A PEOPLE BUSINESS.

Engineering is a team sport played by thousands of people co-operating to do a bit better than the day before and to avoid the other team getting the drop on them."

This is a good one, I've never heard it before. It's so true as well!

Your point about culture is right on, as well. I've also noticed a couple of times Indian engineers introducing themselves with a little 5 min resume/education brief in order to define their place on the pecking order from the beginning. This is not a criticism... it's just an observation. It's just a culture thing. In the same way that the stereotypical English person is very good at queueing.

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

I've also noticed a couple of times Indian engineers introducing themselves with a little 5 min resume/education brief in order to define their place on the pecking order from the beginning.

So I have a funny story about this kind of thing.

I was observing a "cultural awareness" course, being run for new recruits by a German multinational client.

Each attendee had to give a 3 minute introduction to their background, the two Americans who went first, vastly over-ran talking in great detail about their academic achievements and extracurriculars at university, and how great their uni (Texas A&M) was for their specialist area.

A Dutch woman and two Germans went next, ran exactly to time, talking about where they grew up, a couple of interesting facts about their hobbies, what they enjoyed about their work, and finishing with a very perfunctory where they got their doctorate (which was Cambridge, ETH Zurich, and Heidelberg). .

The Americans were very embarrassed to suddenly realise they had waxed lyrical about their academics to this group who were more qualified and went to "better" universities, and said so.

At this point the Dutch lady says "but why does it matter, that's all in the past, I assume we were all hired because we're good at our jobs, not because we have a piece of paper"...

At which point the moderator cut in with "so it didn't take long to find a point of cultural difference then."



Going back to the Indians, introductions are actually actually a good marker of how westernised Indian expats have become, the ones who have "made it" will give a short précis of why they're in a specific meeting and what they offer that team or client, in a sentence or two.

I say this in the context of seeing a two-tier system developing in the Middle-East, with Indians who have experience working for global "Names" and reasonably neutral accents speaking British/American English able to command salary and employment conditions comparable to European and American expats.

Whilst Indians without the CV and speaking (even very good) Indian English, are still given disproportionately worse pay and conditions, even if they're better at their jobs.

This is not a criticism... it's just an observation. It's just a culture thing. In the same way that the stereotypical English person is very good at queueing.

It's funny observing those trends as you travel around.

The stuff that generally holds true is often a lot more subtle and specific than traditional lazy national stereotypes, but it can really matter.

 

[Erie Fred]

I say this in the context of seeing a two-tier system developing in the Middle-East, with Indians who have experience working for global "Names" and reasonably neutral accents speaking British/American English able to command salary and employment conditions comparable to European and American expats.

Whilst Indians without the CV and speaking (even very good) Indian English, are still given disproportionately worse pay and conditions, even if they're better at their jobs.

Brings to mind the popular saying (that I don't agree with)
"Fake it until you make it".

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

Brings to mind the popular saying (that I don't agree with)
"Fake it until you make it".

I think that advice works pretty well in a lot of social situations and professional settings which are client facing.

It falls on its face in any situation where actual skills/insight are required or work must meet a specified standard.

 

[Erie Fred]

I think that advice works pretty well in a lot of social situations and professional settings which are client facing.

It falls on its face in any situation where actual skills/insight are required or work must meet a specified standard.

I like this definition. ^^^^^

 

[addjunkie]

I think that advice works pretty well in a lot of social situations and professional settings which are client facing.

It falls on its face in any situation where actual skills/insight are required or work must meet a specified standard.

This reminds me of some technicians we had sent to us in Angola, from Pakistan. They were older guys with relavant experience, gaining offshore experience. In a short space of time it became apparent that the Angolan trainees knew more than some of these guys did, with a few examples of reverse training going on. But the one thing that was initially most noticeable was hierarchy due to age. It was clearly there with the Angolans, too, but there were times the younger guys were afraid to speak up at meetings without the nod from the old sage.

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

This reminds me of some technicians we had sent to us in Angola, from Pakistan. They were older guys with relavant experience, gaining offshore experience. In a short space of time it became apparent that the Angolan trainees knew more than some of these guys did, with a few examples of reverse training going on. But the one thing that was initially most noticeable was hierarchy due to age. It was clearly there with the Angolans, too, but there were times the younger guys were afraid to speak up at meetings without the nod from the old sage.

I saw that in Iraq too, big meeting with very senior engineers from one of the operating companies way over in the west, and it was obvious they didn't understand what was going on, but their younger assistants did.

The juniors were trying to hide this by feeding the seniors questions in local dialect, but they were even bungling asking the questions they were being fed...

In the end a usually mild mannered Omani on my team blew his top, which got quite a few westerners in the room worried as the first three words in his rant were pronounced walaw 'iidha kunt... Not that the actual meaning was that much less explosive.

We actually won the work, later revealed by our Iraqi partners to be in large part because it was such a nightmare working with them that all the other bidders dropped out.

 

[c.a.p.r.i]

I dunno, that's a pretty negative outlook. Training only takes you so far, and I'm a big fan of formal training, but at some point you just have to start from the bottom.

There's plenty of work out there, but welding is pretty easy... Its the graft that goes along with it that's hard.
"everyone wants to be a welder until it's time to do welder sh*t" and that "sh*t" can be anything other than welding.

As a hirer, i look for attitude before skillset. We've had kids here on work placements, some are interested, some aren't. One kid came eager to work. Any task we gave him, even crap jobs like painting, he applied himself with enthusiasm and effort.
Guess who I hired...

Hardly an aspiration when faced with...need experience, overqualified, too old, been out of work to long, unemployed.
With the door on fresh talent closed there is no opportunity to further develop your skills, certainly no skills shortage here and never has been either.

At least i have the pleasure of displaying my Granada Scorpio at car shows every summer, both O/S & N/S sills were replaced my myself along with the rear arches and i'm a fully qualified mechanic.