Need help finding a wire feed roller

[clevinski]

Hi...

I have an 85 amp Dayton 6Z935C MIG welder that I'm happy with for now. The only problem is that it has a wire feed roller with .030" (0.8 mm) and .035" (0.9 mm) grooves. (This is because the basic welder is set up for gasless welding; mine has the gas kit installed and I use it with 75/25% Argon/CO2.) I'd like to find a roller for this machine with a .024" (0.6 mm) groove, so I can try thinner wire, and was hoping that by posting some photos here the many experts on this site might be able to identify the actual manufacturer and point me to a supplier. The welder uses a Tweco gun; I don't know if the feed mechanism is generally matched to the gun or not.

To help with identifying the welder, it has four heat settings plus a fan setting; the highest heat setting is blocked by the selection knob in the photo.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

 

[shenion]

Hidden by the torch is "manufactured for Dayton ????" Does it say who made it?

Hmm, a real Tweco torch (looks like a mini gun), nice

If all else fails, measure the inner and outer diameter of the roller. I may have one.

 

[clevinski]

Hidden by the torch is "manufactured for Dayton ????" Does it say who made it?

No, the part that's blocked says "Dayton Electric Mfg. Co. Inc.". There's no indication of who built it for them.

I did notice that there is a listing for the drive roller in the manual, but it doesn't make sense. First, it's listed in two different areas under two different part numbers (4323 and 4331). The former number is shown as part of the original welder, while the latter is listed under "Replacement Parts List for Accessories". In the case of the replacement P/N, there is a drawing which clearly shows two grooves (as does the actual roller itself) but the description for both is "Drive Roller, .024, .030, .035".

Thanks for the offer to check if you have something the same dimensions; if I have no further luck identifying it here, I'll remove the roller, break out the trusty caliper, and take some measurements.

 

[clevinski]

Well, here's something interesting. I searched the original P/N with the key words "drive roller" and ended up at a Century Welding site. There a 2006 price list showed:

4323 .024, .030, .035 Steel Drive Roller For 2130, 2140, 2150, 2160, 2175, 2225

But what I still don't get is how one roller can handle all three wire sizes. Any ideas on that?

 

[shenion]

The smaller groove handles 0.023-0.025, the larger one handles 0.030-0.035

My Clarke was set up that way.

 

[clevinski]

Shoot, if that's the case, it should work with the existing roller just by flipping it. I'm gonna give that a try... thanks, Scott!

 

[shenion]

Yes, I bet the other side of the roller is marked 0.6/0.024

 

[clevinski]

Welding .024 vs. .030

Bingo! That was it! I assumed that the two grooves were for .030 and .035, but one is for both .030 and .035, and the other is for .024. I flipped the roller over and reinstalled it, went to Home Depot and bought some Lincoln L-56 .024 wire and some .024 tips, installed the wire and readjusted the feed roller tension.

I'm not quite sure what I expected... I guess I thought that I would have a little better control when welding. What I have instead is less penetration than I did with the .030 (probably from wire resistance being higher due to the smaller diameter, right?) and a much greater sensitivity to wire speed setting. I have a feeling that I don't have the wire roller tension set correctly yet, though it seems to feed correctly, doesn't skip, etc. But the arc always seems to stutter when starting, even if it then settles down to a steady arc. I have to turn the heat up higher when welding the same material (16 ga. mild steel) with the .024 vs. the .030, yet when I do so, it throws more sparks. Is this normal? Maybe I just need to practice with it more.

When do you guys use .024 / 0.6 mm wire versus .030 / 0.8 mm wire? What is the difference in technique needed with the narrower wire?

 

[shenion]

I just tried 0.024 for the first time last weekend, worked well. I will use it only on real thin metal.

I have a roll of 0.030 and 0.035, I was able to use the 0.035 on 20ga steel but was difficult. Will probably just use 0.024 up to 16ga and 0.035 for everything larger.

If the motor takes a while to get up to speed, it will have stutter on starting. Try doing a long weld and move the torch at a constant feed. If the wire feeder is varying, you will see variance in the width.

I did not notice any more sparks with 0.024. Maybe your gas flow it a bit low or your wire speed is too high. Check out the wire speed video in the tutorial. It really helped me starting out to get the correct sound.

I set wire speed entirely by sound. If not enough penetration increase the voltage.

BTW, the Lincoln L-56 is great wire. All I use now after using a no-name brand.

 

[clevinski]

.024" Wire

I had tried some longer welds, and the width doesn't vary. The problem can't be the motor itself because it worked perfectly with .030" wire. Gotta be the operator.

I had the gas flow set rather high (20 cfh) to make sure that this didn't affect the finished weld. There was no splatter at all, but at higher power settings, sparks were literally flying 3-4 feet. This didn't occur with .030" wire.

Maybe the wire speed is too high. I'll have to play around some more. I was just disappointed that it seemed so hard to get a consistent arc.

I agree with you 100% on the wire speed video; it's invaluable. The sound I had was best described as "frantic", which made me think that the speed was way too high. But turning it down very much causes intermittent welding. "arc, pause, arc, pause, etc." Yes, I tried in between and finally got to some better settings, but wire speed seemed more critical than with the .030" wire.

No matter what I did, I didn't get very good penetration of the 16 ga. steel. Low power or high, fast feed or slow, none of the settings penetrated very well. This is also very different from the .030", where I burned through some 1/8" material on high power last time I used it.

I had reached the point with the .030" where I was able to weld OK on a horizontal surface . I also seemed to have a lot more power with .030", I'm guessing because of the smaller diameter wire of the .024" reduces current carrying capacity by 36%.

I really wanted to try the L-56 because I saw a post here about how good it was. So far, I can't tell.

In all cases, I'm welding 16 ga. steel. I have to play around some more, and buy some L-56 in .030".

 

[Justme]

Make sure the galz coating has all been removed or you will have long (health) & short (bad welds) term problems.


Justme

 

[clevinski]

Make sure the galz coating has all been removed or you will have long (health) & short (bad welds) term problems.

Make sure the galz coating has been removed from... what?

 

[shenion]

What are the amp settings on the Dayton?

I think it may be 60A and would be a bit high voltage for 0.024 wire.

 

[clevinski]

What are the amp settings on the Dayton?

85 amps at maximum, I believe it's 30 amps at minimum, with a total of 4 heat settings.

I'm thinking that the voltage was too high and that the .024 wire is just too thin for 16 ga. steel. So I went out at lunch and bought some L-56 in .030". I'll have to find some thinner steel and see if the .024 welds well on that.

What I don't get is why it seems so many of our British friends are into welding auto sheet metal? Most US welders talk about building contraptions of some kind (like your bike stand or lower grill rack), but it seems most amateur UK welders get into it to work on autos. Is restoring older cars in and of itself a hobby with a big following in the UK?

 

[shenion]

I did my test welds with 0.024 on 1/8" steel. Was able to get decent penetration. Have a buddy weld a a set of trailer rails with 0.090 steel with 0.024 wire. Had no problem. He did say the wire speed was way up.

Sounds like your MIG does not have enough inductance for thin wire. So when the thin wire hits the weld pool, it just explodes. My Miller was that way with any wire used in short-arc mode. Was solely designed for >200A. It had no penetration, lots of spatter. Actually left a crater at the end of the weld.

Added a reactor and it is now smooth. I am now able to weld at about 18A with 0.024 wire.

If your manual includes a schematic, does it show an inductor on the output? Some low-end welders do not include one to save cost.

As far as fixing cars; it is because they have a lot of older rustbuckets there. By mid 80's most US cars were dipped at the factory and don't rust as much. Aftermarket panels are easy to find for earlier cars.

My '88 Mustang had a damaged front quarter. Could have been pounded straight. Body shop bought a new panel for $90. Cheaper than the labor to fix.

You do see lots of panels welded on the TV restoration shows. Usually when fixing small areas or replacement panels are not available.

 

[clevinski]

Welding .024" wire

If your manual includes a schematic, does it show an inductor on the output?

Yes, the schematic clearly shows a reactor in series with the negative welding lead.

I suspect that the reason for the "exploding" was that I simply had the power too high. The bigger problem seems to be lack of penetration. I really need to play around more.

I noticed while looking at the schematic that the welder polarity seems to be set for flux-core wire. (The ground clamp is positive and the gun is negative.) Since I only use gas shielded, I'll have to see if there's a safe way to reverse that. Since other circuits (solenoid, MIG gun trigger) connect to these points, I don't think it's as easy as just switching a couple of wires.

BTW. when I was a young 'un, I owned not one, but two 1964 1/2 Mustang 2+2s (the fastback version). I know, 1965 was the first official model year, but they actually started building them earlier. The tail lights were molded with "1964 1/2". If I kept the darned things, they would be worth a fortune now. One was a basic six cylinder, but the other had been build by Ford for their "Fastbacks" drag racing team before it was disbanded. It had an acid-dipped body, 289 cu. in. engine developing 350 HP, cheater cam, racing pistons, and (I kid you not) a 5.57 Positraction rear end. It was unstoppable off the starting line, but red-lined just about at the finish line. You made me nostalgic by mentioning Mustangs...

 

[johnny7]

hi

when you went for the smaller dia wire, did you replace the tip with an appropriate .6mm tip?

it could be that not reducing the tip gives less electrical contact, there's no arcing inside the shroud, that could explain the sparks flying all over but no penetration (arcing at the tip leaving not much current for the actual weld)

i may be talking bo**ox but it's worth asking


rgds, john

 

[shenion]

I noticed while looking at the schematic that the welder polarity seems to be set for flux-core wire. (The ground clamp is positive and the gun is negative.) Since I only use gas shielded, I'll have to see if there's a safe way to reverse that. Since other circuits (solenoid, MIG gun trigger) connect to these points, I don't think it's as easy as just switching a couple of wires.

In your first picture, is that the ground lead connecting to the top of the feeder?

If so, it looks like swapping the polarity will be straightforward. Remove the ground from the top bolt, remove the shorting bar from the bottom and swap them.

I meant to ask earlier if you swapped the polarity. It makes a big difference.

 

[clevinski]

Welding with .024" wire

Johnny7, yes, I replaced the tip with a 0.6 mm one, so I had (or should have had, anyway) good contact. I'm increasingly convinced I had the power too high, but haven't had a chance the last couple of nights to try reducing it.

Scott, yes, that's the ground cable on the upper part of the feeder. I hadn't seen how to switch the polarity, but now I see in the photo that there is a second threaded hole (barely visible) near the top of the block that grips the torch. That would allow the jumper to be relocated to the top and the cable to the lower connection, as you indicated.

 

[shenion]

Will make a world of difference on either 0.6 or 0.8mm. Give it a try and let us know.