New user with Cosmo 170 (SIP) and a headache

[BChild]

New set up appears to be having the opposite effect - after a various motor speed running tests to listen for any speed changes with no load/wire the "hardly able to notice mm by mm" setting needed 120 on the counter to get the drive wheel to turn

Weird stone cold machine today and min of 120 on the counter needed to move the roller with no load

I'll measure the wire feed speeds in m/min over the weekend and see what the range is compared to the old results

Maybe it was just the PWM bedding in???

Still scratching my head on the relay brake

 

[BChild]

Weird stone cold machine today and min of 120 on the counter needed to move the roller with no load

Maybe it was just the PWM bedding in???

Well it was something bedding in as everytime I go back to it it needs 120 (ish) on the counter to start the WF motor running so I'll see what it like when a bit of welding gets done tonight after I tidy the last few wires and add some cable ties to keep it neat and then put the covers back on.

The other thing I had to do was really wind back the tension on the clamp roller before the wire slipped - I'm thinking now that my just slipping setting was more likely to be motor stalling at slow speeds

Really want to find some small rubber feet for the machine which was also on the list of jobs to do

Still scratching my head on the relay brake

Now fitted and works a treat - at last I managed to get my head round it!!!

 

[BChild]

OK last post on the subject - seriously this has gone on way too long

Tonight's activities

- Tidied up the wiring

- Fitted some rubber feet

- Bolted in the transformers rather than the temporary rivets

Refitted the sides

Fired it up on CO2 (0.6mm wire)

On power 2 ran a lot of lines on some scrap 20 gauge steel - wire feed settings very stable - few blow thros because I was more interested in seeing if the wire feed was creeping up or down and it appears neither was the case (Tended to work with power 2 on this machine right from day 1 due to poor arc on power 1) (Pic 1 and Pic 2)

On Power 1 no change - struggled to get penetration and you ended up with a bead that sat on top (might have been better with 0.8mm wire but I didn't try that) decreasing wire feed speed made it splutter - increasing it resulted in push (Pic 3 and Pic 4)

It didn't worry me too much because if I had to weld using CO2 I'd stick it on Power 2 and stitch weld as the results to my eye were fine

Swapped to Argoshield Light (0.6mm wire)

On Power 1 - stable arc, nice flat beads with lots of penetration and a lovely fizz (Pic 5 and Pic 6)

On Power 2 - same as above just wider beads and similar penetration (As Above)

Observations & Conclusions

The PWM appears to have given the motor more omph for want of a better expression - The wire feed tension is now fully backed off so that the spring arm is pressing against the screw mount (minimum tension unless i modify the plastic assembly and I'm not going to) and that's the only way I could get the wire to slip between the rollers on the low feed settings - I think I'm right in assuming my previous settings wasn't slippage but motor stalling and it doesn't stall now

The PWM has resolved my wire feed speed changes as the machine warms up - I found the settings as I swapped from Power 1 and 2 and changes gases to be very repeatable with no changes over time

The COSMO/SIP machine is sensitive to gas choice - if you want the best from it argoshield light is the way forward but I could put up with the performance on CO2 on all but the lowest power setting (and that may be a bit better on 0.8mm wire - I'll try it one day)

Pic 7 is why I'm not going to be doing anything else to it for a while as I promised myself no playing with new toy until old one was back together and working I wonder how it's going to perform on CO2 (well I'm going to use the bottle up obviously!)

 

[BChild]

THE END

 

[madkayaker]

have you worked out the cost of all the components?

 

[BChild]

have you worked out the cost of all the components?

Did it all earlier in the thread but I've updated it here - I've updated it and posted it again here

SIP Cosmo 170 Costs (Inc modifications)

£152.00 Purchase cost BINB - "Old Stock" (included delivery)

1st mod to wire feed - should be std IMHO

£2.00 Wire Brace

2nd WFM Mod - separate power feed

£4.70 Relay Bridge
£21.10 Transformer
£10.00 Wire & Connectors

3rd mod - Euro Torch - to fix constantly leaking gas valve

£29.00 Euro Torch Connector
£20.00 Gas Solenoid
£32.00 Euro Torch
£7.00 (Postage)

4th Mod - Multi turn pot and counter - fix over senstive std Pot

£12 2K Ohm 10 Turn Pot ("First one")
£22 10 Turn Pot counter

5th Mod - to stop wire run on

£3 Relay Brake

6th Mod - 100 Ohm Trim pot

£2.50 - The cost of pint cos that's what I owe BillJ

7th Mod - to remove original wire feed circuitry and improve wire feed

£15 PWM (From Malcolm)
£12 New 10K Ohm 10 Turn Pot to suit PWM ("Second one")
£1.63 for some rubber feed

If my math is any good

£345.93 Total

And no I'm not going to cost the time involved As an excercise it's been a good learning curve - thats all

 

[madkayaker]

just think how much it have saved in beer money in the pub

 

[BChild]

just think how much it have saved in beer money in the pub

Yeah except I blew it all in the PH run by Steve

 

[BChild]

THE END

And maybe not yet.....

Reading back throught the thread I looked again at BillJ's comments on relay brake so decided to make 100% sure I'd followed his extra bit of advice re connections on the normally closed side of the relay - I hadn't so I fixed it properly - glad I checked

I was still baffled by the problems running CO2 on 0.6mm wire on the lowest setting (worked fine with argo shield light) and tonight I'd decided to swap over to 0.8mm

Ahhhh big DOH moment as I got the 0.8mm out of the box and thought oooh that's thin stuff - I was already running 0.8mm (I'd changed it over a while back to do some 3mm angle for some movable plant pot stands) so much for my attention to detail

Fitted the reel of 0.6mm and with argoshield light (how I'd left it from the day before) as expected no problems on any low settings

Swapped to CO2 and no problems either on any of the low settings but more importantly no issues on the lowest setting - in fact the wire feed counter settings were almost the same regardless of gas choice and not far away frrom the settings on 0.8mm from the night before

At last after way too long I really think I have a repeatable process

Yeah I know I've said I was happy with the mods before and then found a problem

 

[WindWalker]

THE END

Nooooo, it's the end of an era!!!

Glad to see you got it into a fairly usable state BC. Not looked in for a while now but thought I would check to see if any further refinements had been discovered.

I too will have a portamig one day but until then some voltage refinements would help mine. It's usable but the wire speed is still too sensitive, a fraction of a movement means the difference between good welds and machine gun rapports. A three voltage (maybe 2?) selection as was had with the original set up would help.

It does weld though

 

[BChild]

Nooooo, it's the end of an era!!!

Yeah maybe....... It's not going on the scrap heap as it does have a lot of advantages in portability and it quite nice now (final judgement reserved pending an assesment by either Malc or BillJ)

Glad to see you got it into a fairly usable state BC. Not looked in for a while now but thought I would check to see if any further refinements had been discovered.

I too will have a portamig one day but until then some voltage refinements would help mine. It's usable but the wire speed is still too sensitive, a fraction of a movement means the difference between good welds and machine gun rapports. A three voltage (maybe 2?) selection as was had with the original set up would help.

It does weld though

As I said earlier I think mine does too - take this anyway you want but I wouldn't have bought a Portamig had I got it to the stage it is now and for what it's worth it welds well on CO2 on anything but the very lowest setting - to use that you need to use argoshield

I actually think the PWM unit made a huge difference in terms of wire feed torque and repeatability but I never tried it as a modification in isolation - I like the sensitivity of a multi turn pot and the easy to read settings of a counter so first thing I did was remove the PWM single turn pot even before I fitted it (might have been nice to try the PWM as it was off the shelf but I had my reasons and I've covered that enough)

My advice would be try a 10 turn pot

 

[mangocrazy]

I don't know if I dare suggest this, but...

Would it be possible for BChild to start a new thread listing out in sequence (and with lots of big pictures and simple words) all the various steps taken in his 'Super-SIP' conversion? This would be a godsend for the new and understanding-challenged members amongst us (i.e. me).

I can fairly easily get my head around the steel liner and wire feed bracing mod (because they're mechanical) and the separate wire feed transformer mod (because it's fairly straightforward), but (like BChild) when it gets into electronotrickery my eyes tend to glaze over. So a simple, step by step approach to the later electrical/electronic mods would be wonderful. Plus bits we'll need to order, of course.

And then (of course) it should be made a sticky...

I fully understand if BChild has had enough of this and never wants to see it again, but if he can bear to revisit his back pages, it would be an incredibly useful resource. Not saying that this thread isn't (because it clearly is), but distilling all the wisdom and experience in this thread into a concise sticky would be absolutely bloody marvellous...

 

[Big_James]

braking relay wiring?

Well it wouldn't do anything with the 87a and 87 swapped it just buzzed the relay so I swapped them and it worked a treat straight away

No run on at all..... Not that noticable a lower speeds but at more than 3m per min it definately stops dead.

View attachment 9771

What is now annoying me is the welder settings change every time you move it - I know what the problem is so should be easily fixed - that 1000 ohm trim pot moves whenever the welder gets bumped and this is changing my base start point so writing settings down for future reference is a waste of time.

A good example of how much it changes is last week 65-95 was a nice range for the lowest power setting - today it was 25 - 55 so it's pretty annoying to say the least. The ten turn wire feed pot makes it bearable I know why I struggled with the over sensitive 3/4 turn pot now - that in combination with a trim pot that changes as it's moved or bumped meant I was never in the same zone twice

Choices are - fit multi turn 100K or 1000K pot or nail varnish the current one in a fixed position so it's unaffected by movement

I think the nail varnish option is worth a crack - quick and easy and if it doesn't work I'll replace the pot

I know everyone will be very glad that this thread will be able to sink to the bottom and die

PS it still has "play" in the wire between the wire feed roller and the end of the torch - It's about 5mm or movement - I've changed the tip for a new one and checked out the wire feed motor (no play there) so I am putting this down to the eurotorch and metal liner offering little or no resistance to wire feed and a curve in the torch lead in normal use - I'll see if I still have play when the torch is extended straight out unless anyone else thinks it's normal

Hi there,

I'm very new to this forum as well as welding, and as such I haven't used my welder in anger yet,but a mate of mine borrowed it and said it was a bit pants so im embarking on the same mod as the on on this thread. I've got this far...




But now I'm struggling to interpret the line diagrams of the relay connections, can some one enlighten me as to how and where I should connect this please?

Thanks in advance

James

P.s click the image for a much larger version of it

 

[BChild]

Hi there,

I'm very new to this forum as well as welding, and as such I haven't used my welder in anger yet,but a mate of mine borrowed it and said it was a bit pants so im embarking on the same mod as the on on this thread. I've got this far...




But now I'm struggling to interpret the line diagrams of the relay connections, can some one enlighten me as to how and where I should connect this please?

Thanks in advance

James

P.s click the image for a much larger version of it

Even a larger image isn't much help and to be honest I suck at electrickery - can you go back thro the thread and quote the line drawing so I can help if I can

 

[Big_James]

Well it wouldn't do anything with the 87a and 87 swapped it just buzzed the relay so I swapped them and it worked a treat straight away

No run on at all..... Not that noticable a lower speeds but at more than 3m per min it definately stops dead.

View attachment 9771

What is now annoying me is the welder settings change every time you move it - I know what the problem is so should be easily fixed - that 1000 ohm trim pot moves whenever the welder gets bumped and this is changing my base start point so writing settings down for future reference is a waste of time.

A good example of how much it changes is last week 65-95 was a nice range for the lowest power setting - today it was 25 - 55 so it's pretty annoying to say the least. The ten turn wire feed pot makes it bearable I know why I struggled with the over sensitive 3/4 turn pot now - that in combination with a trim pot that changes as it's moved or bumped meant I was never in the same zone twice

Choices are - fit multi turn 100K or 1000K pot or nail varnish the current one in a fixed position so it's unaffected by movement

I think the nail varnish option is worth a crack - quick and easy and if it doesn't work I'll replace the pot

I know everyone will be very glad that this thread will be able to sink to the bottom and die

PS it still has "play" in the wire between the wire feed roller and the end of the torch - It's about 5mm or movement - I've changed the tip for a new one and checked out the wire feed motor (no play there) so I am putting this down to the eurotorch and metal liner offering little or no resistance to wire feed and a curve in the torch lead in normal use - I'll see if I still have play when the torch is extended straight out unless anyone else thinks it's normal

Thanks for the reply. My skillz are of a similar level when it comes to electronics, the thing I'm trying to work out is how you have wired in the braking relay. In the quoted post above you have a slightly blurry image of what I think is your relay and in the post above it on the thread (page 15 post #141) I would like some more info on how you have that connected please.

Tar James

 

[BChild]

Thanks for the reply. My skillz are of a similar level when it comes to electronics, the thing I'm trying to work out is how you have wired in the braking relay. In the quoted post above you have a slightly blurry image of what I think is your relay and in the post above it on the thread (page 15 post #141) I would like some more info on how you have that connected please.

Tar James

To be honest it was a mater of swapping the wires around untill it worked

One mistake I did make was using the wire feed motor supply as the permenant live - that meant it worked well at high speeds but didn't operate at all at lower speeds - or worked well at low speeds and then cut the power out completely at anything over half speed on the wire

a drawing/picture earlier in the thread I had missunderstood

I'll see if I can find it Post #135

 

[disco stu]

I've reached the end!! I almost feel like I deserve a medal, but not as big as BChilds medal should be!! This has been very helpful, I'm slowly working my way through the mods with an SIP I bought for $30. I'm sure it was stored outside, but its working. Main issue so far is the wire run on, will get to the rest later

 

[BChild]

I've reached the end!! I almost feel like I deserve a medal, but not as big as BChilds medal should be!! This has been very helpful, I'm slowly working my way through the mods with an SIP I bought for $30. I'm sure it was stored outside, but its working. Main issue so far is the wire run on, will get to the rest later

Feel free to start a thread on it, I'm sure you'll get lots of good advice.

Funny really I dug it out of where I buried it ages ago and I've got it next to the welding bench as I need to get it going again, need a portable welder for a couple of jobs at a mates house locally and the portamig isn't the easiest thing to lug around, esp in a two seater convertable.

 

[skotl]

I've reached the end!! I almost feel like I deserve a medal, but not as big as BChilds medal should be!! This has been very helpful, I'm slowly working my way through the mods with an SIP I bought for $30. I'm sure it was stored outside, but its working. Main issue so far is the wire run on, will get to the rest later

Congrats

For the run on, have a look at the mod with the DPDT (double pole double throw) solenoid that shorts the motor to ground when the trigger is released - that does a very effective job of braking the wire-feed.

 

[disco stu]

Thanks guys. I'm very impressed with this thread. I kind of like the whole customisation and hacking thing, but yes, the welder should work fine out of the box!

Was going to try that one first Skotl, just need to get hold of the relay first. Need to pull my board out and see what power the other relay is etc. I have no idea what model or anything I have, apart from its a handymig with minimum 30a, and 4 power settings. The info is corroded off etc