Running 3.2s on under 100A

[Drains]

Well it's time for me to eat humble pie!

I've recently had a bit of a stooshie with George B about using 3.2 rods on wee 100A arc welders. I hold with my advice not to, still, but I made the mistake of saying a good weld wouldn't be had with 100A. Oops. One look at the pack of Oerlikon Fincord 3.2 6013s in the cupboard told me I was onto a loser, as the current range is 80-130A. That's me told then.

So I chopped up some 3mm x 25mm strip, and laid a couple of rods. Now before I show the pics, notice these were NOT done on a £30 100A max el-cheapo AC buzzbox, they were done on a very nice old 140A AC Esab Bantam set, a machine I seldom use but love dearly. It's been through many boxes of 2.5s, and not many 3.2s, at rather more amps than we're talking here.

Here it is



And here is a butt weld on 3mm strip, no prep ground, 2mm gap. 95 Amps. Not a weld to write home about, and no prizes for good looks, but given the size of rod, the size of material and the amps, it's no surprise it looks rubbish. Perfectly strong though, no inclusions, full pen.

Weld



And here's the full pen on the back. Again, looks a but cruddy, but no major problems with integrity there (not perfect though).



And here's a fillet weld, reasonable, I was most surprised!



So there you go George, told you I'd soil me bed.

 

[GeorgeB]

And here's a fillet weld, reasonable, I was most surprised!

Drains - I respect you for being honest.

If I'm honest, too, you probably acheived better results than I ever have with 3.2mm rods but I simply knew they were of some use in the toolkit of options from the few times I've used them. My reason for trying them out originally was that I'm getting short of the 2mm and 2.5mm rods in my assorted pack of Aldi rods, so I decided to try some of the other sizes, left in the box. The 4mm rods were a step too far, however.

Perhaps we should underline that nobody is suggesting these are the optimal rods for a 100A welder and 5mm steel but they might be of some use for capping, or whatever, if you need to lay down a greater quantity of new metal in one pass.

 

[shenion]

Try it on a 100A machine. That is a 140A one.

My 110A one will barely run 2.5mm rods.

 

[Drains]

Thanks George. Can't say I like being wrong, but I don't mind admitting it.
I'd like to take some credit for a half-decent weld, but it's worth remembering that Oerlikon Fincords are a good, forgiving rod, and that Esab weld set gives a good arc. I'm sure I'd have trouble doing the same job with Aldi rods and a cheap buzz box. They are very hard to use.

Scott, that was the nearest machine I have - I was making it easy for myself. I'll try it the hard way given the chance!

 

[GeorgeB]

Try it on a 100A machine. That is a 140A one.

My 110A one will barely run 2.5mm rods.

I thought Drains said it was set to 95A. Isn't 95A on a 140A machine equal to 95A on a 100A machine, if the stated outputs are correct, of course.

I should also mention that I think I've used 3.2mm rods with my 70A inverter, too. Does DC make it easier?

Perhaps your 110A machine isn't producing the stated output or does the lower voltage in the USA make a difference?

 

[shenion]

The 100A buzz boxes tend to be way overrated on their output. Also their OCV is lower.

DC is easier and inverters tend to have their rated output and a much higher OCV.

It is not the voltage here although it did draw 20A on 120V. Ran it plugged into a 30A circuit 12" from the breaker box. Was real hard to maintain an arc on anything over 2mm.

Heck, it was an $0.99 ebay special. Does what it was priced at. Have seen a few others that did not do much better.

 

[brightspark]

welding under 100 amp

heres a picture of mine a but weld with 2mm gap using 3.2 rods . ones at 90 amp the others at 80 amp and thirdly at 60 amp with pickhill oilcooded ac 180 welder had no bother striking the arc at all settings not the best of my welds but given the settings and rusty steel not cleaned

 

[candygt]

Will grab a 3.2mm and run a few beads with my clarke 110 tomorrow eve (or friday) if more comparison is needed. Im fairly sure ive allready burnt a few on it, no striking problems tho.

 

[scarecrow]

View attachment 17462

maybe put up a pic of what it should look like as well
if some one posted that as a weld you would be telling them to turn up the amps a bit

 

[GeorgeB]

if some one posted that as a weld you would be telling them to turn up the amps a bit

As I said above: "Perhaps we should underline that nobody is suggesting these are the optimal rods for a 100A welder and 5mm steel but they might be of some use..."

 

[matt1978]

I think that there has to be 2 views on this discussion and on this forum in general............

As you can see from the wide and varied membership of the forum, the advice given generally falls into 2 main categories.

1) The correct way, generally offered from people who have been involved within the welding industry for a long time and who have recieved formal training and gained recognised qualifications and also people who have self taught themselves, but have listened to the advice of people from the Industry and have become very competant welders. They offer advice which is based on tried and tested techniques from throughout welding industry aswell as also being based on 'accepted and proven' rules from welding & mettalurgical theory etc.

Examples of this are (Also points of discussion that have frequented the forum)

DCEP (DC+) Giving 2/3rds of the heat ('Accepted' welding Theory)
Not using 100% Ar as a sheilding gas for mig welding Steel (Industrial Technique)
Using AC tig when welding Aluminium

Or..........

2) The way, which although not strictly correct and would probably never be used in Industry, but which however may well suit a DIY/Hobby welder for his/her home welding application, which is usually generally offered by people who fall into the same category of the people that they are offering advice too.

Examples.....

Using Steel mig wire to weld Stainless Steel.
Using a high percentage Co2 mix in Argon to weld Stainless Steel
Using DCEP Tig for welding Aluminium

I dont want anyone to get defensive over what I have said, but in my opinion, as someone who is involved in the welding industry on a professional basis and I know that there are plenty more on here who also fall into that category, I think that the advice we give, should be based on the 'Correct' way of doing things. Of course its not to say that there arn't other ways that things can be done, especially when considering the application of some of the projects that are being welded.

But I get the impression from some people on here that if someone says something is Black then they will try their damnest to prove that it may be White and the only reason that 'we' are saying its Black is to make money or hoodwink people!

 

[scarecrow]

As I said above: "Perhaps we should underline that nobody is suggesting these are the optimal rods for a 100A welder and 5mm steel but they might be of some use..."

its better to put in 3 runs of a 2.5 than an under powered 3.2

 

[GeorgeB]

its better to put in 3 runs of a 2.5 than an under powered 3.2

You may well be right. I also just came across the following forum:

http://forum.landrovernet.com/archive/index.php/t-84977.html

At the above forum, someone asked "which rods you prefer and why."

One response said: "Typically Truweld 6013 3.2mm rods using 180A inverter arc machine. ~80A works just fine."

 

[Drains]

I tell ee what, I'd like to try this on a cheapo set. I've checked out on t'internet a couple of 100A sets, and they say 2.0 to 2.5 mm rods. Now knowing what I do of these types (Draper, Silverline etc), if there was a cat in hells chance of running 3.2s on those sets, they'd shout it from the rooftops. I managed a butt and a fillet, both downhand, on 95A with my set, but it's obvious the machines are in different leagues. I'll wager the same goes for a 180A inverter compared with a shonky Draper number.

Also though George, 80A is really pushing it. Maybe an uphill butt on thin material could be ok, but any other position really is going to be a poor job. (I run 2.5s at around that. I'm not alone there) Yer man on the landrover forum may well have been talking tosh. If we all hung onto the word of people who talk out of their hat, but agree with us, well... it'd be like letting politicians run the country, and what a nonsense that would be!

I must add, I'm glad to see there is a general acceptance that there is a "right" way to do a job, and a "possible" way to do the same job. Progress!

 

[GeorgeB]

II think that the advice we give, should be based on the 'Correct' way of doing things. Of course its not to say that there arn't other ways that things can be done, especially when considering the application of some of the projects that are being welded. But I get the impression from some people on here that if someone says something is Black then they will try their damnest to prove that it may be White and the only reason that 'we' are saying its Black is to make money or hoodwink people!

You make some good points but it will be a sad day if responses to questions raised at this forum are limited to a panel of so-called experts who have proven experience and qualifications. I see it as a hobby to find alternative (especially cheaper) ways of doing things, and to challenge received wisdom. I agree the profit motive does seem to be behind a lot of the 'received wisdom'. Some time back, I was duped for years by hi-fi magazines which strongly recommended certain products. I'm sure it had more to do with making money than sound quality. I don't intend to make a similar mistake again, i.e. to be enticed into buying 'top end' welding gear.

 

[shenion]

George, always go by the manufactures ratings. Here's the Lincoln Electric 6013 rods I use:

As it says, 110A minimum.

BTW, my 110A unit had 2.5mm marked at the max setting only. 3.2 were more than it could handle.

 

[Drains]

You make some good points but it will be a sad day if responses to questions raised at this forum are limited to a panel of so-called experts who have proven experience and qualifications. I see it as a hobby to find alternative (especially cheaper) ways of doing things, and to challenge received wisdom. I agree the profit motive does seem to be behind a lot of the 'received wisdom'. Some time back, I was duped for years by hi-fi magazines which strongly recommended certain products. I'm sure it had more to do with making money than sound quality. I don't intend to make a similar mistake again, i.e. to be enticed into buying 'top end' welding gear.

Away with you George. Who is trying to sell you top end gear? It would be unsuitable for the stuff you do, and I'll bet nobody in the selling game here would try to sell to you or anyone else on the basis of your kind of work. If I might venture, I think you fail in your attempts to defend what most of us, hobby or pro, see as poor quality, badly made and designed, too small, difficult to use kit.

Typically with arc welders, even in the cheaper ranges, larger ones are much easier to use than smaller, even if the basic design is the same. Arcs run better, duty cycles at low currents are improved, welding is a better, more reliable, more satisfying experience. I know this, I have seen it and experienced it. Fancy inverters and electronically controlled gizmos undoubtedly make things better still, but are by no means necessary.

However those wee things by Wolf, Ferm, Silverline, Draper etc are really, truly, horribly difficult to use and genuinely, honestly, i think they should all be bouyancy tested in the nearest body of water.

I have no vested interest in holding this opinion. I don't sell welders or equipment. Nobody pays me to say this stuff. But I have had experience of many types and standards of welding equipment and consumables, and i do cutting, forming and welding metal for a living. Even if I were doing it for hobby purposes, I would still want equipment that didn't insist on making my life a misery. Where's the fun in that? I am, by the way, a notorious tight-****, so buying fancy machines for the sake of it is not my style.

 

[matt1978]

I agree the profit motive does seem to be behind a lot of the 'received wisdom'. Some time back, I was duped for years by hi-fi magazines which strongly recommended certain products. I'm sure it had more to do with making money than sound quality. I don't intend to make a similar mistake again, i.e. to be enticed into buying 'top end' welding gear.

I think you mis-understood me..........I ment that the advice offered by people from the Industry should only be based on the 'Correct' way of doing things. Because if you have a forum where the so-called-professionals are advocating incorrect techniques then its not a good thing IMHO. I also never said that this advice should be the only advice available. As I mentioned more than once, for the sort of applications mentioned here, its not always critical to adhere to the rules

Your reference to 'Top end' welding gear again, is something that I think that you should also see the 'other' perspective. No matter what you say (and I am willing to bet my house ) none of the AC Buzzboxes or Mig Welders from the Supermarket or simerla would be any match for a 'true' industrial equivilient. Thats not to say that if all you want to do is weld a bracket for your hanging baskets in the back garden, then a AC Buzzbox wouldnt do the job admirally. And I definately wouldn't advocate a that someone in that position should only buy top end equipment. I dont belive any one on this forum ever has.

 

[brightspark]

George, always go by the manufactures ratings. Here's the Lincoln Electric 6013 rods I use:

As it says, 110A minimum.

BTW, my 110A unit had 2.5mm marked at the max setting only. 3.2 were more than it could handle.

that charts for the lincoln rods drains was using fincord m rods the 3.2 was rated at between 80 and 130 amp current ive used ficord m there an easy all rounder nice stick to use

 

[gridley51]

I used to have one of these little Esab buzz boxes.I say "used to" as Drain`s pic has brought it to mind that I`ve not seen it in a long,long time.
I used to use it for the odd quick weld on something which needed done of the top of a ladder or the forklift as it was small enough to sling on your shoulder.
I also used to only buy Fincord M for general work as they were quite cheap,£28 for a carton of five boxes of 3,2`s.That little Esab could burn a 3.2 ok but ISTR it cut out after about one and a half rods and you had to let it cool down for a few minutes.
Mark.