Tig welding alloy wheels

[premmington]

One of the regular Amazon delivery lads drives a Transit style van with BMW badged low profile wheels on it. When I suggested, In a friendly manner that they might not be suitable he just smiled and said something to the effect of maybe, but they look so good.

Unlikely it has 8ply tyres on in either...?

All this is OK till you kill someone on the road - then even if the accident was not your fault - a defective vehicle makes it your fault!

 

[Stingray]

It’s what I do and what I enjoy
I’ve lots of strings to my bow and being in lots of positions in the industry over 2 decades nearly.
People can please themselves if they chose to weld such things. I base my posts from experience and whether you agree or not I still stand by my posts. You cannot weld on wheels without changing things metallurgically in a negative sense. This is a fact.
I do believe a metallurgist did pass many comments on this thread. Hotrodder. Sadly he’s not with us anymore but his posts are simply legendary
Have a read of them. His knowledge on this and many other subjects was quite exceptional.

Good advice there Richard, there are a quite a few competent welders on here that are welding highly critical applications day in day out as part of their job, from My own perspective I have been asked on numerous occasions to weld alloy wheels and always turned it down, yes I could weld an alloy wheel and make a quick £25 but for Me it purely comes down to who is liable if something fails catastrophically when the said wheel hits another pot hole on the same spot and self destructs because it has been repaired and the integrity of the wheel has been severely compromised and only looks ok cosmetically.
I am 99.9% sure if you tell your insurance company that you’ve had an alloy wheel repaired they shall not just say that’s ok we shall still gladly pay out, if the aforementioned wheel was to blame for someone being seriously injured or heaven forbid loss of life I’m pretty sure insurers shall delve deeper into who repaired it, are they qualified to repair alloy wheels, are they approved by some sort of body and can there workmanship be guaranteed, I don’t think Myself making a quick £25 or Joe Bloggs can give such reassurances and thus the reason why it’s more hassle than it’s worth and I would not like to have that on my conscience that I’ve been responsible for the consequences of My actions whether it be direct or indirect, I also think a lot of aftermarket alloys from China/Taiwan are extremely suspect to start with and combine this with ultra low profile tyres and the state of our roads then the odds of failure on a repair are quite high!
There’s a guy near Me on market place on Facebook advertising alloy wheel repairs from £7, one wheel that he shown repaired had a complete section of the alloy missing and a patch placed in, another wheel had a 2” crack going from the rim and then a longitudinal crack in each direction from the crack on the rim, anyone with common sense would scrap the wheel but that’s his choice, unfortunately most owners of wheels that are being repaired do not realise how the integrity of an alloy wheel has been affected after damage and potential repair...

 

[Richard.]

Good advice there Richard, there are a quite a few competent welders on here that are welding highly critical applications day in day out as part of their job, from My own perspective I have been asked on numerous occasions to weld alloy wheels and always turned it down, yes I could weld an alloy wheel and make a quick £25 but for Me it purely comes down to who is liable if something fails catastrophically when the said wheel hits another pot hole on the same spot and self destructs because it has been repaired and the integrity of the wheel is severely compromised and only looks ok cosmetically.
I am 99.9% sure if you tell your insurance company that you’ve had an alloy wheel repaired they shall not just say that’s ok we shall still gladly pay out, if the aforementioned wheel was to blame for someone being seriously injured or heaven forbid loss of life I’m pretty sure insurers shall delve deeper into who repaired it, are they qualified to repair alloy wheels, are they approved by some sort of body and can there workmanship be guaranteed, I don’t think Myself making a quick £25 or Joe Bloggs can give such reassurances and thus the reason why it’s more hassle than it’s worth and I would not like to have that on my conscience that I’ve been responsible for the consequences of My actions whether it be direct or indirect, I also think a lot of aftermarket alloys from China/Taiwan are extremely suspect to start with and combine this with ultra low profile tyres and the state of our roads then the odds of failure on a repair are quite high!
There’s a guy near Me on market place on Facebook advertising alloy wheel repairs from £7, one wheel that he shown repaired had a complete section of the alloy missing and a patch placed in, another wheel had a 2” crack going from the rim and then a longitudinal crack in each direction from the crack on the rim, anyone with common sense would scrap the wheel but that’s his choice, unfortunately most owners of wheels that are being repaired do not realise how the integrity of an alloy wheel has been affected after damage and potential repair...

For me a lot of it is about come backs. Let’s say there was absolutely zero risk in doing it and in the event of a failure after welding it would 100% of the time just be a return the wheel do again. I still would not be interested in that. I’d still turn them away. Although my work at home is private work and done in my own time I pride myself on the fact that every single thing that’s left me has not come back. Take gizmos post for example. According to him 10% of his wheels are comebacks. He might be ok with that but I wouldn’t be. Each to there own but I’m hanging on to my 100% hit rate for as long as I possibly can.

 

[anto44]

I inspect cars on behalf of insurance companies on a regular basis. A welded alloy wheel is marked as a dangerous defect even if the weld is intact. If the weld is cracked or broken after a crash the insurance company will class it as a possible cause for the crash and refuse a payout.

 

[Migmac]

My sons pal got his Merc alloy welded up. It failed. It was only a small crack that got welded up, the wheel broke into several pieces not long after.

 

[Richard.]

My sons pal got his Merc alloy welded up. It failed. It was only a small crack that got welded up, the wheel broke into several pieces not long after.

That’s my entire point.
Who could of predicted where,how and when those cracks were gonna run.

 

[skotl]

...Let’s be honest, these things aren’t doing 20KRPM so we’re not talking about them explosively flying apart...

That got me thinking, so I did a quick bit of maths (which may well be incorrect - clarifications/corrections welcome!):

1. A 15" wheel has a circumference of 47"
2. One mile divided by 47" is 1,348
3. So for a car to travel one mile in one minute (aka 60MPH), the wheel needs to rotate 1,348 times in that minute
4. If the car was doing 120MPH then that's 2,700 RPM

So I agree that it's not doing 20KRPM, but it's not a million miles away.

(this reminds me of the Boodhound SSC article where they said that the force on the wheel rims at 1,000MPH is 5 tonnes, and a bag of sugar at the rim would weigh more than an artic)

 

[bricol]

That got me thinking, so I did a quick bit of maths (which may well be incorrect - clarifications/corrections welcome!):

1. A 15" wheel has a circumference of 47"
2. One mile divided by 47" is 1,348
3. So for a car to travel one mile in one minute (aka 60MPH), the wheel needs to rotate 1,348 times in that minute
4. If the car was doing 120MPH then that's 2,700 RPM

So I agree that it's not doing 20KRPM, but it's not a million miles away.

(this reminds me of the Boodhound SSC article where they said that the force on the wheel rims at 1,000MPH is 5 tonnes, and a bag of sugar at the rim would weigh more than an artic)

I've heard of rubber band tyres, but that's ridiculous ;-)

You forgot the tyre - assuming a 205/50 tyre like on my integrale - diameter of around 23" - so that's around 72.25 circumference. 63,360" in a mile. About 877 rpm. Slower than fast spin speed on a decent washing machine.

Just for thought:
http://alloyweldcraft.co.uk/alloy-car-wheel-repair-service.php

A mate a number of years ago was buying some brand new alloys from a reputable name - they turned up looking crap - blow holes etc. They were replaced - and those looked as bad. Through work, he them x-ray inspected . . . he returned those for a refund . . .

 

[pressbrake1]

My sons pal got his Merc alloy welded up. It failed. It was only a small crack that got welded up, the wheel broke into several pieces not long after.

That’s bad luck and I fear bs
Tbh unless they were dodgy chinese knock offs
I know a scrapyard who smashes tyres off alloy rims on a machine like a heavy log splitter which I made and material failure is local to the force of the blade quite undramatic and wheels are designed not to suffer catastrophic failure.

 

[PhillipM]

And yet I can show you dozens of wheels where the rims have shattered and there's just the stubs of the spokes left. What happens to a wheel under load when it's spinning and the vehicle is doing 60mph and getting shock/impact loads is very different from a slow crushing force from a log splitter.

You can tell that by the very fact that we're discussing cracks and not bends.

 

[pressbrake1]

And yet I can show you dozens of wheels where the rims have shattered and there's just the stubs of the spokes left. What happens to a wheel under load when it's spinning and the vehicle is doing 60mph and getting shock/impact loads is very different from a slow crushing force from a log splitter.

You can tell that by the very fact that we're discussing cracks and not bends.

A blade under load will cause a crack and with continued force the crack should propagate . I assume the many wheels you have seen destroyed have been crash damage then, hard enough to rip the tyre off?.

Im trying to play devils advocate but both sides seem to be weak on facts and explanation

 

[PhillipM]

They've been when the wheel has cracked from an impact. And I'm talking OE or pressure formed/forged motorsport wheels here too, not cheap chinese castings. They'll bend first if you hit the back of the barrel but that just leads to the tyre unseating and another hundred impacts as the car slews to a stop.

 

[Migmac]

That’s bad luck and I fear bs
Tbh unless they were dodgy chinese knock offs
I know a scrapyard who smashes tyres off alloy rims on a machine like a heavy log splitter which I made and material failure is local to the force of the blade quite undramatic and wheels are designed not to suffer catastrophic failure.

Came with the car, so not knock offs. Not bs either

 

[MattH]

That got me thinking, so I did a quick bit of maths (which may well be incorrect - clarifications/corrections welcome!):

1. A 15" wheel has a circumference of 47"
2. One mile divided by 47" is 1,348
3. So for a car to travel one mile in one minute (aka 60MPH), the wheel needs to rotate 1,348 times in that minute
4. If the car was doing 120MPH then that's 2,700 RPM

So I agree that it's not doing 20KRPM, but it's not a million miles away.

(this reminds me of the Boodhound SSC article where they said that the force on the wheel rims at 1,000MPH is 5 tonnes, and a bag of sugar at the rim would weigh more than an artic)

A more average alloy wheel size would be 225/45R17 with a circumference at the tyre of more than 78”.

Meaning that at 120MPH it’s more like 1425RPM. So a fair way away from 20KRPM.

A 185/55R15 would be 72” and 877RPM at 60MPH so not exactly crazy forces.

 

[skotl]

A more average alloy wheel size would be 225/45R17 with a circumference at the tyre of more than 78”.

Meaning that at 120MPH it’s more like 1425RPM. So a fair way away from 20KRPM.

A 185/55R15 would be 72” and 877RPM at 60MPH so not exactly crazy forces.

Fair enough - I figured I'd be somewhat out, and totally forgot the tyres

 

[MattH]

I’d agree, 120MPH on a 15” alloy with no tyre and a welded repair is just asking for trouble!

 

[premmington]

The general public love - big wide wheels with low profile tyres.

When you are working on cars - it is not often now you are removing 13" steel wheels (when you do they seem so light in weight).

Big wide wheels are flawed - the strength is all on one side (the face of the wheel) - then you have a big wobbly not supported band - the wheel rim.

We have potholes in Norfolk you could loose a dog down.

 

[outofthefire]

All the health and safety advice about welding a cracked wheel and how dangerous it is and how it will affect the integrity of said wheel, shame the manufacturers of said wheel don't apply the same standards so the wheels don't crack in the first place

 

[fizzy]

I can't understand this fascination with ultra low profile tyres. Width definitely - the Insignias I drive usually have 245 width which is just about right - not good in the wet though. They come with 18, 19 and 20" wheels. I was stranded last week after hitting a pothole and bursting a tyre - I don't think the 18" wlould have been a problem as it has a bigger sidewall.

They say the lower the sidewall the better in bends but you will never tell the difference. Just look at a F1 car! Although they are about to switch to lower profiles.

There is one big advantage with ultra low profile - even without run flats if you have a puncture you hardly feel it - my Discovery leans over like the tower of pisa with a flat!

 

[fizzy]

F1 actually runs 13" rims!

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/119745/f1-should-make-huge-wheel-size-jump