The_Yellow_Ardvark
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I need to know where this skip lives....
We all do, but I think it is a guarded secret.
- Thread starter Dr.Al
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We all do, but I think it is a guarded secret.
Dr.Al
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The only rods I've got are 6013 I think. I've not done much stick welding as I prefer TIG and mostly just well steel.
pressbrake1
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I make pins and bushes etc for a skip yard so I get to have a nose aboutI need to know where this skip lives....
Dr.Al
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Here's some more details of those cracks...
Firstly, the mounting plate. This looks like it's broken and been welded back together at some point.
Underside:
Top (I think I can see a weld bead here):
and here are the two cracks in what I gather is called the yoke:
Firstly, the mounting plate. This looks like it's broken and been welded back together at some point.
Underside:
Top (I think I can see a weld bead here):
and here are the two cracks in what I gather is called the yoke:
Seadog
Save the planet. It's the only one with rum!
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Dr.Al
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I've been cleaning up the underside of the bench vice, but there was a fair amount of stubborn rust that didn't want to shift even after the citric bath.
I decided it was time to bring out the big guns: electrolysis!
I made some plastic bushes (I love having a lathe to hand!) - these two are for the moving jaw:
They fit into the holes on the ends of the moving jaw and allow me to pass a bit of threaded rod through without it touching the body:
Getting into the jaw area of the fixed jaw was a bit more complicated. I made some more plastic bits that look like this:
The first one is tapped M6 and screws onto the end of some threaded bar to stop it touching the metal. The left-hand bottom one is tapped M8 in the end and has an angled hole drilled through it. The right-hand bottom one is just a top-hat washer.
Here's how it works:
That threaded bar goes right down into the bottom of the hole (but has the plastic cap on the end to prevent contact).
Then they went into the bath and got wired up:
I turned the power on then started adding washing soda while watching the current on the multimeter until it hit about 5 A. Well that's what I intended to do. What I actually did was slipped with the hand holding the bag of soda crystals, dumped a whole load in and the current shot up to 12.5 A
Ah well, hopefully there won't be enough hydrogen in the garage to blow the roof off when I press the button for the garage door opener in an hour or two!
Reaction was lively at least!
I decided it was time to bring out the big guns: electrolysis!
I made some plastic bushes (I love having a lathe to hand!) - these two are for the moving jaw:
They fit into the holes on the ends of the moving jaw and allow me to pass a bit of threaded rod through without it touching the body:
Getting into the jaw area of the fixed jaw was a bit more complicated. I made some more plastic bits that look like this:
The first one is tapped M6 and screws onto the end of some threaded bar to stop it touching the metal. The left-hand bottom one is tapped M8 in the end and has an angled hole drilled through it. The right-hand bottom one is just a top-hat washer.
Here's how it works:
That threaded bar goes right down into the bottom of the hole (but has the plastic cap on the end to prevent contact).
Then they went into the bath and got wired up:
I turned the power on then started adding washing soda while watching the current on the multimeter until it hit about 5 A. Well that's what I intended to do. What I actually did was slipped with the hand holding the bag of soda crystals, dumped a whole load in and the current shot up to 12.5 A
Ah well, hopefully there won't be enough hydrogen in the garage to blow the roof off when I press the button for the garage door opener in an hour or two!
Reaction was lively at least!
Screwdriver
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When I did a bit of research on my old post leg vice (you can see here: https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/restoring-a-post-leg-vice.77113/) I came to the conclusion it was mostly cast steel which was then forged. If you look closely you can even see where the bottom brackets are forge welded. I think the jaws are also forge welded to the main body which is the join that failed on mine.
The upshot is that you can happily weld it up with **anything**. Probably best to stress relieve it afterwards, especially that slender top mounting bracket (or so called yoke).
Dr.Al
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Next job was to try to deal with those jaw screws.
Do you ever get to the point where you're absolutely sure you've reached the limits of the envelope of your machines, and then take it a little bit further?
I started by trying all the usual failures: penetrating oil, heat, impact wrenches etc. In the end I gave up and went back to the old favourite: drill the screws out.
First thought was to get it on the drill press.
That's my little welding table sitting on top of the bench drill's table (to make it bigger), with a drill press vice up on its side. Here's another view:
Looked plausible, but after staring at it for a while I decided I wasn't happy with it and wanted something more rigid. Over to the mill...
I only have one vice that could grip the vice and also fit on the milling table in a position where the spindle could get to the screws. It's a bench vice, which seems a bit wrong on a milling table, but what the heck:
That's lined up with the screw furthest from the camera and yes, the body of the vice-to-be-drilled is touching the emergency stop button on the mill. In fact it's pressing the emergency stop button in slightly. Just not quite enough to actuate the switch and turn the mill off.
Here's the view from the other side when I was lined up with the other screw (and had swapped to a collet chuck instead of the drill chuck that was in there before I started - I used the collet chuck for all the actual drilling):
All that clutter on the right-hand end of the milling table is the fine-feed mechanism for the spindle and the spindle travel lock - I had to take that all of the mill as it got in the way of the vice!
It was all worth it though: the jaw is off!
These are the remnants of the screw heads - it looks to me like I got the alignment spot on
Those screws have an included angle of 30° for some reason, so I turned a new screw (just one for now as I wanted to drill and tap one hole, then mount the jaw and use it as a reference for the second hole). Made out of EN8 with an M8 thread and 5 mm hex socket made with the rotary broach I finished making yesterday.
The hex socket is a bit loose (I'd erred on the side of too big when making the cutters for the rotary broach: they're right at the top limit according to Machinery's Handbook). I'll probably sharpen the cutter a bit to bring the size down before making any more.
Anyway, the end result: two new holes with M8 v-coils installed ready for new screws holding the vice jaws in.
Happy Dr Al
Back to work (from home) tomorrow so I've got a bit of time to build up to thinking about drilling the screws out of the fixed jaw.
Do you ever get to the point where you're absolutely sure you've reached the limits of the envelope of your machines, and then take it a little bit further?
I started by trying all the usual failures: penetrating oil, heat, impact wrenches etc. In the end I gave up and went back to the old favourite: drill the screws out.
First thought was to get it on the drill press.
That's my little welding table sitting on top of the bench drill's table (to make it bigger), with a drill press vice up on its side. Here's another view:
Looked plausible, but after staring at it for a while I decided I wasn't happy with it and wanted something more rigid. Over to the mill...
I only have one vice that could grip the vice and also fit on the milling table in a position where the spindle could get to the screws. It's a bench vice, which seems a bit wrong on a milling table, but what the heck:
That's lined up with the screw furthest from the camera and yes, the body of the vice-to-be-drilled is touching the emergency stop button on the mill. In fact it's pressing the emergency stop button in slightly. Just not quite enough to actuate the switch and turn the mill off.
Here's the view from the other side when I was lined up with the other screw (and had swapped to a collet chuck instead of the drill chuck that was in there before I started - I used the collet chuck for all the actual drilling):
All that clutter on the right-hand end of the milling table is the fine-feed mechanism for the spindle and the spindle travel lock - I had to take that all of the mill as it got in the way of the vice!
It was all worth it though: the jaw is off!
These are the remnants of the screw heads - it looks to me like I got the alignment spot on
Those screws have an included angle of 30° for some reason, so I turned a new screw (just one for now as I wanted to drill and tap one hole, then mount the jaw and use it as a reference for the second hole). Made out of EN8 with an M8 thread and 5 mm hex socket made with the rotary broach I finished making yesterday.
The hex socket is a bit loose (I'd erred on the side of too big when making the cutters for the rotary broach: they're right at the top limit according to Machinery's Handbook). I'll probably sharpen the cutter a bit to bring the size down before making any more.
Anyway, the end result: two new holes with M8 v-coils installed ready for new screws holding the vice jaws in.
Happy Dr Al
Back to work (from home) tomorrow so I've got a bit of time to build up to thinking about drilling the screws out of the fixed jaw.
Dr.Al
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That's great news! When you say stress relieve it, am I right in assuming you mean heat it up with a torch and let it cool down gradually?
Dr.Al
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Screwdriver
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Yes, I guess it depends on the welding rod you use but I just went with whatever was at hand. Mine was a much bigger more massive piece and it looked relieved when I stopped welding it anyway.
The_Yellow_Ardvark
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@Dr.Al
Last two vices I had to weld, one was with "Special" rods and one was with off the shelf.
I did a post about a vice repair, with the "specials".
The other was on one of my leg Vice.
The leg vice I welded it with a Arc welder.
Then to relieve the stress and allow it to cool slowly. I dumped it in a bucket of sand and left it.
The other vice, I didn't.
Both come out OK.
But, out of the 2 methods, I lean towards the sand method.
Last two vices I had to weld, one was with "Special" rods and one was with off the shelf.
I did a post about a vice repair, with the "specials".
The other was on one of my leg Vice.
The leg vice I welded it with a Arc welder.
Then to relieve the stress and allow it to cool slowly. I dumped it in a bucket of sand and left it.
The other vice, I didn't.
Both come out OK.
But, out of the 2 methods, I lean towards the sand method.
Agroshield
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Happy us as well.
If a setup works and does the job, it does not have to look pretty.
Never neglect cellulose-based organic material for one-offs. It is very versatile.
Can I ask where the drill vice that can be used sideways came from?
Mr Vark forgot to say that the sand needs to be bone dry so block paving stuff is good. Vermiculite/cat litter also works well (and soaks up spillages).
Thanks.
Dr.Al
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I've got two of them: a big 'un and a little 'un. Unhelpfully, they came from a car boot sale, but I think they're made by Soba and are "Unigrip" vices. Something like this: https://www.chronos.ltd.uk/product/soba-precision-3-way-drill-vice-unigrip-100mm/ - I think I have the 125 mm one (the one holding the moving jaw in the picture above - I mostly use this to hold things while angle grinding) and the 75 mm one (which I use as my normal drill press vice).
Agroshield
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Thankyou. Also at Axminster, similar price.
No excuse for drunken holes with a soba vice.
Dr.Al
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I went out to the workshop after work to do a bit of a tidy up but never quite got round to it. Instead I got going on removing the jaw from the fixed jaw casting.
I expected this to be more straightforward (and it was) but it offered some interesting challenges of its own as it also stretched the limits of my mini milling machine.
I started by mounting it on the milling machine in the milling vice with the vice turned at 90° to its normal orientation (which slowed me down a bit as I had to search for the original vice handle as the home-made one I usually use wouldn't fit!). The vice was held down with one of the normal screws (visible in the picture below) and a strap clamp on the end. It's not the strongest hold on a part I've ever done, but I'm only drilling (apart from a little plunge with a centre cutting end mill to give a flat surface for the drill to start).
The challenge here was that there simply wasn't enough space for a drill chuck or for my ER40 collet chuck in combination with the 8.3 mm drill bit in the M8 V-Coil set.
After a bit of a ponder, I put a bit of 10 mm EN1A in the lathe collet chuck and drilled it out 8.3 mm with the V-Coil drill bit. I then cut it length-ways with a hacksaw and cleaned up the cut with a triangular file. The result:
An 8.3 mm R8 collet. That fitted (just) above the vice and I was able to get the screws out.
The 16 mm R8 collet was then used with my spring centre which also just fitted if I pushed the centre up against the spring and held the tap with it while manoeuvring into place:
Et voila:
While I was at it, I decided to sort out the tapped hole in the bottom, which holds a little bracket that's part of the quick release mechanism. The existing thread in the casting was fine but the screw had seen better days and was some imperial nonsense, so I drilled that out and v-coiled it M6.
Again close to the limit of the mill, but it wasn't quite so bad: I could use my ER40 collet chuck for the drilling operation:
You can see that the vice is at a jaunty angle. That wasn't required, I just couldn't be bothered to tram the vice (even though I can do it in less than a minute these days) as I planned to take it back off and clean the t-slots out thoroughly when this job is done. I figured it was better to leave the vice very obviously un-trammed than leave it nearly trammed and make the mistake next time of assuming it's trammed.
With the ER40 collet chuck holding the drill, the head raised to the very top of the column and the spindle fully withdrawn, this is how much clearance I had:
I screwed the v-coil insert in a turn too far, but it doesn't affect it's operation, so all's well that ends well as the bard said:
I expected this to be more straightforward (and it was) but it offered some interesting challenges of its own as it also stretched the limits of my mini milling machine.
I started by mounting it on the milling machine in the milling vice with the vice turned at 90° to its normal orientation (which slowed me down a bit as I had to search for the original vice handle as the home-made one I usually use wouldn't fit!). The vice was held down with one of the normal screws (visible in the picture below) and a strap clamp on the end. It's not the strongest hold on a part I've ever done, but I'm only drilling (apart from a little plunge with a centre cutting end mill to give a flat surface for the drill to start).
The challenge here was that there simply wasn't enough space for a drill chuck or for my ER40 collet chuck in combination with the 8.3 mm drill bit in the M8 V-Coil set.
After a bit of a ponder, I put a bit of 10 mm EN1A in the lathe collet chuck and drilled it out 8.3 mm with the V-Coil drill bit. I then cut it length-ways with a hacksaw and cleaned up the cut with a triangular file. The result:
An 8.3 mm R8 collet. That fitted (just) above the vice and I was able to get the screws out.
The 16 mm R8 collet was then used with my spring centre which also just fitted if I pushed the centre up against the spring and held the tap with it while manoeuvring into place:
Et voila:
While I was at it, I decided to sort out the tapped hole in the bottom, which holds a little bracket that's part of the quick release mechanism. The existing thread in the casting was fine but the screw had seen better days and was some imperial nonsense, so I drilled that out and v-coiled it M6.
Again close to the limit of the mill, but it wasn't quite so bad: I could use my ER40 collet chuck for the drilling operation:
You can see that the vice is at a jaunty angle. That wasn't required, I just couldn't be bothered to tram the vice (even though I can do it in less than a minute these days) as I planned to take it back off and clean the t-slots out thoroughly when this job is done. I figured it was better to leave the vice very obviously un-trammed than leave it nearly trammed and make the mistake next time of assuming it's trammed.
With the ER40 collet chuck holding the drill, the head raised to the very top of the column and the spindle fully withdrawn, this is how much clearance I had:
I screwed the v-coil insert in a turn too far, but it doesn't affect it's operation, so all's well that ends well as the bard said:
Dr.Al
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I need to know where this skip lives....
It's just a skip outside an old lady's house (on her driveway). As she said the contents weren't hers, I assume some relation is clearing out somewhere and was taking advantage of her house as somewhere to keep the skip. That's all I know really. I seriously doubt it's going to be refreshed with lots of "new" stuff. I imagine that once the lockdown is over the skip will get taken away never to be seen again.
Agroshield
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You can also turn down the shank of the drill bit to the nearest collet size. The shanks are not hardened (a hard shank in hard drill chuck jaws is not good).
