Wadkin gear box lubrication and worn gear.

[julianf]

I'm working again on my wadkin BAO/S planer thicknesses.

The feed of the stock through the thicknesses is driven by rollers attached to a motor with a simple gearbox.

This is a shot from the underneath of the machine, just to give orientation -

The feed motor is the one on the left.

On the top of this motor is a simple gearbox -

When I first opened it, this is what I saw -

Grease had been used enthusiastically, but to no good effect. Theres a grey skin in the photo but all the lubricant beyond that is perfectly yellow, uncontaminated, apart from actually on the moving parts, where it's just turned to a grey cutting compound : (

These are the listed lubricants from the manual -

Castrol ZN220
BP Energol CS320
Shell Vitrea 320
Esso Spartan EP220

I'm not certain but these seem to be more gear oils than solid greases?

If so I can't really work out how they don't just flow out of the bottom of the gear box (around the motor shaft) but I'm told this is acceptable...


The gear is not yet broken, but it's teeth are worn to the point of being sharp -

This gear wheel is available, but at insane cost. Mine still works, but will be weakened significantly.


Is it possible to remake gears from a worn unit without having the original specs?


So, in summary, whilst I can Google the original lubricants, does anyone here recognise them and are able to clarify for me if they are gear oils or greases? The alternatives seem to be packaged in bottles rather then tubes hence my confusion.

And where would you go from here regarding the ware on the gear? Again it still engages now, but it must be way more fragile than it used to be.

Thank you.

 

[Ton-up]

They are just standard gear oils. You will probably need to renew the bottom oil seal after all these years. Could be why someones changed it to grease.

 

[merryman]

EP220 rings a bell, I think it is gear oil twice (roughly) as thick as EP140s and that is as thick as syrup. I would be looking for a second hand gearbox. Had the same problem with a machine chaincase, previous owner had greased the chain, it was an oil bath type and should use "00 grade grease" which turns out to be an oil with the viscosity of cold treacle. The "normal" grease used by the previous owner had been flung to the sides of the case leaving bearings and chains dry and ruined.

 

[Agroshield]

EP220 is indeed an oil, of a treacle-like viscosity.

There may be a lip seal on the motor shaft. The setup looks similar to a Beaver milling machine feed gearbox and that has a lip seal. Do you have a parts diagram with an exploded view?

If it is going to leak, where will the drips land? Can you rig up a catch pan? How often will you use it? If it is going to leak, set up something so you can top it up easily before each session of use.

You can measure the original worm and wheel specs. You know the number of teeth on the wheel, you have the worm so you can measure the pitch and you know the centre distance to verify the calculations. A new (metric) motor with new worm box adapted so the original sprocket fits might be cheaper than a repair.

 

[julianf]

With regards to oil seals -

The "many times re-photocopied" diagrams of the unit do not show a seal on the bottom of the gearbox. Which is a point of confusion for me.

With regards to a replacement gearbox -

The two gears are availible. I forget the price for the worm, but the other one is over £500!

So I have photos of what it's supposed to look like, and I have my worn gear. Would those two things not be enough to remake it at a somewhat lower cost than £500?

 

[julianf]

This is a screen shot from the parts diagram -

It's not easy to read, but I don't think I see any seal as such?

 

[Scalarocco]

The price from Wadkin will be based on them buying several at once from their supplier. You trying to obtain a 1 off from a gear shop will cost you much more than £500! Finding a second hand part may be easier.

 

[julianf]

The price from Wadkin will be based on them buying several at once from their supplier. You trying to obtain a 1 off from a gear shop will cost you much more than £500! Finding a second hand part may be easier.

At £25 per hour, that's 20 hours.

I do not believe that an engineer would take 20 hours.


However, please, let's not go down this road, as it will negate the reason for me posting this thread.

 

[minimutly]

With regards to oil seals -

The "many times re-photocopied" diagrams of the unit do not show a seal on the bottom of the gearbox. Which is a point of confusion for me.

With regards to a replacement gearbox -

The two gears are availible. I forget the price for the worm, but the other one is over £500!

So I have photos of what it's supposed to look like, and I have my worn gear. Would those two things not be enough to remake it at a somewhat lower cost than £500?

Hmmm, you’re going to need both the worm and wheel. The worm is likely to be the easier, if you can get a suitable cutter. That wheel needs a special cutter, and or a hob to get each tooth form right. Can you get worm and wheel for £500?
What does the research, design and workshop time to make that add up to? On top of casting the blank, or machining from billet....
One day maybe I might be able to answer those questions, but for now all I can say is that for a one off £500 isn’t far off it.

 

[julianf]

Hmmm, you’re going to need both the worm and wheel. The worm is likely to be the easier, if you can get a suitable cutter. That wheel needs a special cutter, and or a hob to get each tooth form right. Can you get worm and wheel for £500?
What does the research, design and workshop time to make that add up to? On top of casting the blank, or machining from billet....
One day maybe I might be able to answer those questions, but for now all I can say is that for a one off £500 isn’t far off it.

As already requested -

Please, let's not go down this road, as it will negate the reason for me posting this thread.


As stated in the original post, my existing gear works. It's not essential that I replace it now.

What I need to know now is lubricant and why they don't just leak out the bottom of the gearbox onto the motor.

Pages and pages of comments as to if I should or shouldn't be happy as to the price of a gear wheel that I don't even need at the moment, will, as I have already said, negate most of the value of this thread.

 

[Scalarocco]

However, please, let's not go down this road, as it will negate the reason for me posting this thread.

Sorry Julian, but I have to take you down this road because your expectations are way off. To reverse engineer the part with a competent person is going to cost a bob or two before a blow is even struck on metal. £25 per hour? Not in this country. Not for a worm gear set (yes they are normally supplied in sets. You cut the worm wheel first and the worm shaft is then ground to suit). For a one off I would expect it to be fly cut, rather than hobbed.

 

[minimutly]

If you just want lubricant, bronze friendly ep 90 would do, then wait for it to work it’s way down into the motor, leaving the gearbox empty again. Failing that some graphite based grease pumped in each time you use it might prolong its untimely or rather, certain death. I note @Agroshield suggests ep 220 - even better.
And I’m sorry if I trampled all over your request for lube - you did ask the question about cost of a replacement. Next time keep shtum would be my suggestion...

 

[8ob]

If in doubt groil ( hypoid and grease) works well in most of these older worm drives. Its fluid enough to get in everywhere and thick enough not to leak out of less than perfect seal/shafts.

Its been fine in things like the worm drive on the cherry picker.

 

[Agroshield]

The "many times re-photocopied" diagrams of the unit do not show a seal on the bottom of the gearbox.

As you have it on the bench already, dismantle it a little further and find out what is there. It will either have a seal or it won't.

Again, as you have it on the bench, prop it up in a suitable attitude and pour some oil into it. Observe what happens to the oil.

I note Agroshield suggests ep 220

More as a current equivalent to the OEM specs. provided than as an alternative.

8ob's idea of effectively a semi-fluid grease might be even better if the lubricant-retaining ability of the box is tired.

 

[julianf]

As you have it on the bench already, dismantle it a little further and find out what is there. It will either have a seal or it won't.

Again, as you have it on the bench, prop it up in a suitable attitude and pour some oil into it. Observe what happens to the oil.



More as a current equivalent to the OEM specs. provided than as an alternative.

8ob's idea of effectively a semi-fluid grease might be even better if the lubricant-retaining ability of the box is tired.

I put some mtf somthing or other in it (that's what I had to hand) and it exited pretty rapidly.

I'm now concerned that I've flushed cutting paste into the motor bearings, but so be it.

I suspect that the bottom of the gearbox may be designed with a lip around the motor shaft, so as a small amount of gear oil resides in the base of the box, but any excess certainly leaks out the bottom without much restriction.


I've turned it off now and will see how much remains in the box after being sat for some hours. Again I'm hoping some, but if it's none, I think I'll have some issues.

 

[julianf]

 

[bricol]

I'm not sure oil retention is the main worry in that gearbox . . .

 

[julianf]

I'm not sure oil retention is the main worry in that gearbox . . .

Once again, the gear looks very poor, but actually engages well.

Worst case it breaks at some point and ill deal with it then. Before then id rather talk about oil.

 

[PhillipM]

If the MTF has run out that fast I'd be using a semi-fluid grease, preferably one compounded with lanolin or castor oil for the friction reduction but it might not be worth bothering with how worn that is. Wants to be at least EP fortified though, this might be a cheap option:

K400EP Semi-fluid Grease

Morris Lubricants K400EP is a premium quality Lithium EP NLGI 00 semi fluid grease suitable for use in gearboxes, including those on power harrows, where a grade of this type and consistency is required.

www.morrislubricantsonline.co.uk

 

[bricol]

Once again, the gear looks very poor, but actually engages well.

Worst case it breaks at some point and ill deal with it then. Before then id rather talk about oil.

Anything will do at this point - well, maybe not 3in1. Give it a squirt or two of general purpose lithium grease each time you run it. Certainly not anything expensive - put the cash towards the new gear set - you will need both when you do replace it.