Wadkin gear box lubrication and worn gear.

[m_c]

If you look at that parts list, it does mention grease tube, and given your photos, I'd very much doubt that gearbox has even been designed for oil as there is a complete lack of seals.

I have seen old machinery with horizontal gearbox shafts without seals that are low speed enough the oil at most weeps past he shaft after running for a while, but anything with a vertical shaft has always had a seal, or used grease.
There is the possibility it's just designed to get a squirt of oil before use, with the excess just weeping out (and getting soaked up by sawdust given the machine).

 

[Old Dog]

Be careful what oil you use modern oils are not designed for bronze gears. The 00 grade grease(autolube grease in the truck world) is one of the lubes that will not destroy bronze and it lubes very well. As others have said replace the shaft seal.

 

[julianf]

As others have said replace the shaft seal.

What shaft seal?

I can not see one in the parts diagram.

 

[julianf]

Im told that Shell Vitrea 320 (on the recommended lubricants list) is 320 cSt

ep90 is 195 cSt, and water (at 20c) is 1cSt.

I just need to find the rating for a common off-the-shelf grease for comparison in the other direction.

 

[mtt.tr]

If in doubt groil

Isn't that the stuff you used to eat in the 70's

 

[PhillipM]

Im told that Shell Vitrea 320 (on the recommended lubricants list) is 320 cSt

ep90 is 195 cSt, and water (at 20c) is 1cSt.

I just need to find the rating for a common off-the-shelf grease for comparison in the other direction.

Doesn't work like that for grease, grease is shear thinning, even a 00 grease made from a 150cST oil will be 'thicker' and creep less when stood with no/little applied force than a 320, 500 or even 5,000wt oil.

 

[julianf]

Doesn't work like that for grease, grease is shear thinning, even a 00 grease made from a 150cST oil will be 'thicker' and creep less when stood with no/little applied force than a 320, 500 or even 5,000wt oil.

Thank you. I was wondering why the numbers i was finding didnt seem to make sense!

I was trying to find an equivalent of the original recommended oils, and this came up -

Industrial Gear Oil ISO 320 EP Extreme Pressure various sizes | eBay

Use as received for the lubrication of industrial worm, helical and other reduction ratio gearboxes requiring EP lubricants. FAILURE TO DO SO WILL RESULT IN ORDER BEING AUTOMATICALLY CANCELLED. Kinematic Viscosity (at 40°C, cSt) 320.

www.ebay.co.uk

Seems to be the right viscosity, and the advert mentions "Non-staining to yellow metal" which sounds hopeful.

 

[PhillipM]

I mean it's still just going to pour out of the bottom of the box if it has no seals and it's worn, I'd still be going with a fluid grease.

 

[julianf]

Ive looked at the gears more and can now see whats been done to it -


There is virtually no play in the setup - which was confusing to me, but now i realise -

The worm gear looks pretty fresh, and the other gear is very worn. Im almost certain that the worm gear has been replaced, and the other gear is much older, and this is what is now happening -

So the original worm had a smaller diameter, and wore through the teeth of its subject.
At some point i think the worm has been replaced, and the new, fresh worm has a larger diameter, so is catching on the peaks of its thread. Hence no play, as there is no real ware at this point, however, the point of engagement has very little surface.

Its far from ideal (note: i understand this, there is no need to keep telling me again and again) but i wanted to mention this as this is the explanation for why there is significant ware, but very little play (currently -again, im aware this wont be the case into the future)

 

[julianf]

I mean it's still just going to pour out of the bottom of the box if it has no seals and it's worn, I'd still be going with a fluid grease.

Im just going by the fact that there's never been any seals (ie not from new) and that seems to be as close to the "recommended" fluids as i can find.

Again, heres the original spec -

Castrol ZN220
BP Energol CS320
Shell Vitrea 320
Esso Spartan EP220

Im just mindful that someone filled it up with grease prior, and it didnt turn out well! : )

 

[m_c]

Be careful what oil you use modern oils are not designed for bronze gears. The 00 grade grease(autolube grease in the truck world) is one of the lubes that will not destroy bronze and it lubes very well. As others have said replace the shaft seal.

Even old oils have issues.
The big issue is traditionally most EP (extreme pressure) oils used sulphur to provide the EP properties.
The downside is sulphur dissolves brass, so can't be used where there are yellow metals.

Im just going by the fact that there's never been any seals (ie not from new) and that seems to be as close to the "recommended" fluids as i can find.

Again, heres the original spec -

Castrol ZN220
BP Energol CS320
Shell Vitrea 320
Esso Spartan EP220

Im just mindful that someone filled it up with grease prior, and it didnt turn out well! : )

From the list of potential oils, they're basically very thick neat oils.
Have a google for ISO220 oil, and ISO320 oil, and you'll get various results.
I wouldn't overthink it too much.

What does the manual say about quantity?

 

[julianf]

What does the manual say about quantity?

Im not sure it mentions it, just the recommended types.

You would assume it would, but what i have is an pdf made of various sheets, some of which have been built into the pdf upside down etc and theyve all been photocopied within an inch of their lives..

I cant claim to have read every word, but ive certainly not spotted anything regarding machine general maintenance. Calibration, yes, but not maintenance.

 

[Ton-up]

If the motor is bolted, or even its flange is cast on the gearbox, there will be a way of keeping oil/grease out of the motor. The seal could even be in the front flange of the motor, or some kind of thrower, labyrinth and drains to the outside. Even grease separates to some degree and liquid will drain down.
Have you taken the gearbox off the motor?

 

[500e]

We used groil in Frazer Nash gearboxes if you could call them that

 

[julianf]

If the motor is bolted, or even its flange is cast on the gearbox, there will be a way of keeping oil/grease out of the motor. The seal could even be in the front flange of the motor, or some kind of thrower, labyrinth and drains to the outside. Even grease separates to some degree and liquid will drain down.
Have you taken the gearbox off the motor?

I've not taken the gearbox off yet. That should be a task for today.

 

[merryman]

If you are intending to use that box for any length of time, remove all traces of that metal flake. My favourite is petrol, but any solvent should shift it. Blow bearings etc out with an air line after getting as clean as possible with solvent, then oil them. Personally I can't see much difference between 00 grade grease and very thick oil, both are a bit expensive though, and will leak out. It needs to flow in order to dribble back to the bottom of the box and go round again (unlike what has been in there) but will leak out if it can flow, so whatever you use is a compromise.

 

[500e]

The same as most angry grinder boxes
A thrower plate may help with groil leaks

 

[PhillipM]

Im just going by the fact that there's never been any seals (ie not from new) and that seems to be as close to the "recommended" fluids as i can find.

Again, heres the original spec -

Castrol ZN220
BP Energol CS320
Shell Vitrea 320
Esso Spartan EP220

Im just mindful that someone filled it up with grease prior, and it didnt turn out well! : )

Very big difference between the NGLI 3 grease it's been packed with and a 0 or 00 grade semi fluid grease though*, the latter will slump and creep back onto the gears as soon as there's movement, it's almost liquid oil any time there's movement/shear, it'll just slow down leakage a lot compared to an oil in the places where there's no/little movement like the gaps in the case.
Might have been just a fibre washer seal/disc in the bottom before that's long gone.



*

And a '0' grade:

They will slump back onto the gears and are fluid when in operation

 

[julianf]

Took the gear box off. There really isn't a seal. Or anywhere where one would be -

Note I'm only really adding the photo to convince people. The manual shows no seal. The box has no seal. The photo shows no seal.


As to the worn gear -

As per my earlier post, the ware has been from left to right on the top of the gear in the photo. But the reason for no current play is that the worm was renewed and the larger diameter of the fresh worm was enough to catch in the (unworn) pit of the gear. At the minor diameter.

I didn't want to run like this as the contact area would be so minimal, however it suddenly occurred to be that reversing the gear on the shaft would allow the same configuration but with the worm making full contact.

The gear is clearly wrong, but, for the amount I'll use the machine, this may well be enough (with proper luricant) to keep it running for some time.

It's a slow speed, low torque (in my application) device, so I'm happy with that solution for the time being.


I've looked at more detail at the manual and the oil given for the gearbox is an oil, not a grease, but then, in another part of the manual it talks about "greasing" the gearbox every week. So it's all a bit a a hazy mess.

I'll just put somthing thickish into it, as advised, and hope for the best.


Curiously, the weekly access for the gearbox filler is behind a panel that has to be unscrewed with 4 little screws. Doesn't seem like the most convenient or well thought out design in that respect. Maybe that also contributes to incorrect lubricant being used...

 

[m_c]

I'm going to guess lubrication is simply a coating of oil every week, and the gearbox doesn't actually get filled with oil.