Welding to cast steel

[MalcVTR]

The early Record 'unbreakable' vices like the 110 & 112 were made of cast steel but they switched to using 'SG iron' which was a more ductile cast iron less likely to break, used on the 34 series vices.

A way of knowing if it is cast steel is the finish on the casting, steel doesn't cast nicely & needs more finishing. Look inside the vice under the static jaw, if it's steel the metal will be a lot thinner than a cast iron vice & the finish will be rougher. On my 111 steel record the metal is very thin on the non structural parts.

As far as I know Paramo & Record were closely linked, their vices were nearly identical so I would imagine that they used similar materials.

One story I heard was that Record were unhappy about being told by the wartime government to help Paramo make vices!

Thanks for the advice about identifying the material. Here is a pic of the static jaw from when I first started restoring it:

 

[Matchless]

I have done it several times, one annoying failure, carburettor fell off a motorcycle when the stub on the head broke, lasted 500 miles, needed to last 520 miles! had it repaired with metal spraying, for your application mig welding would not be a problem,

bodger (1st class)

 

[brightspark]

I have done it several times, one annoying failure, carburettor fell off a motorcycle when the stub on the head broke, lasted 500 miles, needed to last 520 miles! had it repaired with metal spraying, for your application mig welding would not be a problem,

bodger (1st class)

not as bad as what happened to me then the rubber mounted stubs on my carbs fell off on my microlite . ohh sh it 300 foot up and did an emergency landing in a corn field Christ the farmer would have kicked off if he had seen all the mess of his crop after I dragged it out

 

[Matchless]

not as bad as what happened to me then the rubber mounted stubs on my carbs fell off on my microlite . ohh sh it 300 foot up and did an emergency landing in a corn field Christ the farmer would have kicked off if he had seen all the mess of his crop after I dragged it out

I took off uphill at Stapleford Tawney airfield, mentioned to the tower that there seemed to be a light aircraft about 800 yds from the top of the runway, sitting in the corn field, a couple of people standing next to it scratching their heads! they came back saying that they wondered what had happened to that plane

 

[MalcVTR]

I have done it several times, one annoying failure, carburettor fell off a motorcycle when the stub on the head broke, lasted 500 miles, needed to last 520 miles! had it repaired with metal spraying, for your application mig welding would not be a problem,

bodger (1st class)

Cheers

 

[CwazyWabbit]

Sorry to rain on your parade but it's unlikely that vice is cast steel, most were high grade cast iron.

There are a couple of vice experts on the forum. (@CwazyWabbit & @MattF ?) I suggest you put a post up on the bench vices thread to ask their advice.

If it were me I'd clean up the broken bit, fit the jaw, fully close the vice & fill the gap up with braze. Once it's painted nobody will know!

I reckon it's cast iron looking at the style of it. Also this advert shows a vice of that style and says iron.

 

[MalcVTR]

I reckon it's cast iron looking at the style of it. Also this advert shows a vice of that style and says iron.

View attachment 259007

Yep, that's pretty strong evidence The middle one looks like mine, except for the swivel base - which would be useful to have

 

[MalcVTR]

I just did a spark test with the grinder and it is cast iron.

R-Tech recommend MMA welding of cast iron, but f#@! the rods are expensive: these ones on R-Tech's site are just over £100! "2.5mm Pure Nickel Cast Iron MMA Electrodes 1KG".

Further research gives a clue as to what type of cast iron it is:

"Since Record used castings of 'spheroidal graphite iron' (high carbon cast iron? Is there such a thing?) for their engineering vices I think it's safe to assume that Paramo did the same.

"Spheroidal Graphite Iron" is usually called "Nodular Cast Iron" in the U.S. It's formed by adding a little magnesium to the cast iron (actually rather hard to do) and then heat-treating it after casting. Commonly used for engine crankshafts and connecting rods in the late 50's, 60's and 70's; not sure if the auto industry still does or if they have had to switch to forged steel for lighter weight. Much more ductile than standard cast iron and stronger, but still not up to the strength and ductility of forged steel."

So, I might go back to the simple and inexpensive Quick Steel!

 

[Brad93]

there’s grades within grades within grades

Braze it or spray it or don’t do it at all. You’re likely to break it if you try nickel on it. They sometimes work, they sometimes don’t. One thing for certain, I wouldn’t go near it with nickel unless it was already scrap.

The terms Nodular, white cast iron, grey cast iron, SG are all thrown about. Unless you take it to a microscope and look at it under magnification, or have a material cert it can be any weird or wonderful flavour.

 

[MalcVTR]

there’s grades within grades within grades

Braze it or spray it or don’t do it at all. You’re likely to break it if you try nickel on it. They sometimes work, they sometimes don’t. One thing for certain, I wouldn’t go near it with nickel unless it was already scrap.

The terms Nodular, white cast iron, grey cast iron, SG are all thrown about. Unless you take it to a microscope and look at it under magnification, or have a material cert it can be any weird or wonderful flavour.

Yep, good advice. I think I'll leave it. The vice works fine, so it's not worth risking buggering it up

 

[CwazyWabbit]

I just did a spark test with the grinder and it is cast iron.

R-Tech recommend MMA welding of cast iron, but f#@! the rods are expensive: these ones on R-Tech's site are just over £100! "2.5mm Pure Nickel Cast Iron MMA Electrodes 1KG".

Further research gives a clue as to what type of cast iron it is:

"Since Record used castings of 'spheroidal graphite iron' (high carbon cast iron? Is there such a thing?) for their engineering vices I think it's safe to assume that Paramo did the same.

"Spheroidal Graphite Iron" is usually called "Nodular Cast Iron" in the U.S. It's formed by adding a little magnesium to the cast iron (actually rather hard to do) and then heat-treating it after casting. Commonly used for engine crankshafts and connecting rods in the late 50's, 60's and 70's; not sure if the auto industry still does or if they have had to switch to forged steel for lighter weight. Much more ductile than standard cast iron and stronger, but still not up to the strength and ductility of forged steel."

So, I might go back to the simple and inexpensive Quick Steel!

Today Record use Grey Cast Iron in the lower end mechanics vices and SG Iron in the higher end like the 3x series and the 112 and 114.

 

[Sean]

test it , give it a pop with the tig on an un obtrusive bit. the resulting bubble will either file ( steel) or be glass hard ( cast iron)

 

[slim_boy_fat]

I made this some time back, cast gym weight and scaffold pipe mig'd - first effort failed but got it better the second attempt.

 

[Turbo]

I made this some time back, cast gym weight and scaffold pipe mig'd - first effort failed but got it better the second attempt.
View attachment 259828

I machined a cast gym weight & the swarf came off in dust, just like cast iron!

 

[DAPPH]

Do you think so? I would have expected them to be steel....cast iron being a bit brittle for the hammering they get...

Cor that excited the old grey matter ....IIRC
Spheroidal & flake cast iron , the first one is compressive with no anti shear qualities , the flake is often called malleable cast . If I recall correctly the base of old anvils were malleable cast with the forging of a higher carbon steel surface heat & pressure welded to it .
The shape of the flakes is how they hold graphite in the metal spheroidal being an almost self lubricating bearing surface ......... used to be used on lathe beds .

 

[DAPPH]

Thanks. That's my plan . Just waiting for the copper now.

Someone once told me you can't weld to cast iron as it will go "glass hard"...

Pre heating it to well above hand hot is the way to go with cast iron rods & flux
My pal Glan did a nice arc stick bronze or silicone bronze weld repair to a big cracked bearing housing for my friend .

 

[TechnicAl]

Cor that excited the old grey matter ....IIRC
Spheroidal & flake cast iron , the first one is compressive with no anti shear qualities , the flake is often called malleable cast . If I recall correctly the base of old anvils were malleable cast with the forging of a higher carbon steel surface heat & pressure welded to it .
The shape of the flakes is how they hold graphite in the metal spheroidal being an almost self lubricating bearing surface ......... used to be used on lathe beds .

Other way round.....the flake one is the weakest.......the flakes are modified by adding Mg and that makes them nodular or SG or malleable....If grey iron is cooled quickly it becomes white iron which can be made malleable by heat treatment....whiteheart and blackheart iron.