Who know about hydraulics / power

[Justme]

What sort of engine are you planning to use?
Since you want a free standing machine, the simplest option would be to make a standalone engine skid that has a 540rpm PTO output. Then connect the two together with a standard PTO shaft.

Reading between the lines a bit (and I think m_c has hit the nail on the head there) you're going to want something with at least 21kw (30hp). Then think about torque rise. A 30hp engine with a steep torque rise might hold up better under load than a 35hp engine with a flatter torque curve. OR, it just pulls the revs down to a speed where it can hang on, or at least until the operation has finished.

Is it something like one of these you're wanting?

https://www.daviesimplementsltd.co.uk/product/forestry/pto-power-pack/

The bodger's way would be to do something like suggested here

http://farmingforum.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?4536-PTO-Power-Pack

He's not wrong...

Yes one of them but not the £8k price tag.

Or more closely trying to make of theses

Weight will also be an issue as will alignment as the processor will be trailer mounted. As per the video mounting on the 3 poi t link makes sense.

 

[Justme]

Price wise there is a big jump between 20-30hp and 35-40hp engines.

 

[m_c]

You seem to have found more than i have.

https://www.duun.no/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Samlebrosjyre-VM-ENG-2.pdf
Page 15.

I've designed and built log splitters and a kindling wood processor in the past, so I do know a bit about the likely loads these machines see.
If they had somebody knowledgeable design their hydraulics, they could do it of one big pump with flow dividers/prioritising valves to limit the motor size required without having that much of an impact on processing speeds, but it looks like they opted for the KISS approach, then bodged an electric motor on because people wanted an electric option.

 

[Justme]

I am leaning towards the KISS approach & having an engine powered pto.

I really liked the idea of a remote engine & pumps, however if / when I upgrade the new machine might not be compatible but a 40hp pto work all current processors.

 

[sako243]

I'd just grab an old engine and knock up a PTO off the back of the flywheel. @8ob even has some drop boxes that will drop the gearing sufficiently.

I might do something similar once I've dropped the 1UZ into the Defender with the old 300Tdi engine. Or perhaps the LD28 out of the 6x6 when the Mazda lump arrives for that one.

After all an old school mechanical diesel engine can be picked up for a couple of hundred quid at most and they'll likely be at least 100hp so plenty of reserve. E.g. the two I mentioned should both be around the 100hp numbers. OK the downside is they are ~300kg fully dressed but plenty of power for what you want.

 

[Justme]

https://www.duun.no/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Samlebrosjyre-VM-ENG-2.pdf
Page 15.

I've designed and built log splitters and a kindling wood processor in the past, so I do know a bit about the likely loads these machines see.
If they had somebody knowledgeable design their hydraulics, they could do it of one big pump with flow dividers/prioritising valves to limit the motor size required without having that much of an impact on processing speeds, but it looks like they opted for the KISS approach, then bodged an electric motor on because people wanted an electric option.

I have actually seen that but missed the 63amps on 230v.

Surely that means it is single phase as thats 14kw theoretical potential?

With the 400v about 13kw.

Re bodging on an engine. I think they went further than that as they used 3 different pumps plus other parts of the machine has different motors too.
The pto saw motor is 11.2cc & the elec just 8.2cc.


Another thing I have now spotted is the the pto gearbox is actually 3.8 to 1 not the 3 to 1 I thought it was.
That increases pump speed from 1500-1640 to 1800-2000rpm. That adds further hp requirements.

What I dont want to happen is that it works but not very well.

Now the question is...

Anyone know of a good reliable cheap to run but not to costly to buy stand alone engine?

 

[sako243]

@8ob has a whole host of engines lying around his yard (unsurprisingly).

 

[m_c]

I have actually seen that but missed the 63amps on 230v.

Surely that means it is single phase as thats 14kw theoretical potential?

With the 400v about 13kw.

You have to allow for it being 3 phase.
The 32A is per cable, so the equation is Voltage x Current x 1.73 (officially it's the square root of 3)
Which for 400V 32A is 22.1KW, or 230V is 25KW

 

[m_c]

As for engines, if you're not too bothered about building something new that doesn't meet current emissions limits, you can get a fully dressed Perkins AD3.152 from agriline - https://www.agrilineproducts.com/massey-ferguson-complete-engine-ad3-152-with-injection-pump-7589
Just needs starter, alternator, wiring, waterpump, fan, and radiator added.
Or they do the turbo version which includes starter, alternator, waterpump and fan - https://www.agrilineproducts.com/massey-ferguson-complete-engine-at3-152-7590 although it's currently out of stock.

Not the most refined of engines, but common, reliable, and plenty spares available.
It's worth noting these are Chinese copies, but I've fitted a couple now, and I can't fault them. They're probably getting made with better technology than the original ones.

However, you'd need to figure out how to mount hydraulic pumps to them. Official perkins SAE bellhousings are available.
Have a look at this thread for information https://www.smokstak.com/forum/threads/perkins-3-152.174031/
And this is the bellhousing in question - https://www.riccigiorgio.com/prodotto/campana-volano-perkins-3713531a-9/

I do happen to know where there was a flywheel and bellhousing sitting, but I'm hoping to get them for my own project if they're still there.

 

[Justme]

You have to allow for it being 3 phase.
The 32A is per cable, so the equation is Voltage x Current x 1.73 (officially it's the square root of 3)
Which for 400V 32A is 22.1KW, or 230V is 25KW

Now I get it. Basically a 11kw motor but with a large safety factor re overloading.

 

[Justme]

As for engines, if you're not too bothered about building something new that doesn't meet current emissions limits, you can get a fully dressed Perkins AD3.152 from agriline - https://www.agrilineproducts.com/massey-ferguson-complete-engine-ad3-152-with-injection-pump-7589
Just needs starter, alternator, wiring, waterpump, fan, and radiator added.
Or they do the turbo version which includes starter, alternator, waterpump and fan - https://www.agrilineproducts.com/massey-ferguson-complete-engine-at3-152-7590 although it's currently out of stock.

Not the most refined of engines, but common, reliable, and plenty spares available.
It's worth noting these are Chinese copies, but I've fitted a couple now, and I can't fault them. They're probably getting made with better technology than the original ones.

However, you'd need to figure out how to mount hydraulic pumps to them. Official perkins SAE bellhousings are available.
Have a look at this thread for information https://www.smokstak.com/forum/threads/perkins-3-152.174031/
And this is the bellhousing in question - https://www.riccigiorgio.com/prodotto/campana-volano-perkins-3713531a-9/

I do happen to know where there was a flywheel and bellhousing sitting, but I'm hoping to get them for my own project if they're still there.

Interesting & should be very long lived.

I think weight might be an issue.

Its all got to go on a solid 3500kg trailer.
Trailer 800-1100kg
processor 875kg+ fluids so about 950kg
crane & mounts 500-700kg
log deck 200-300kg
fuel, spares, tools & bits 200kg+

So potentially only leaving 300-500kg for the power unit.

 

[Bornfree]

I would go for a kubota engine they run for ever. And very economical.

 

[8ob]

I would go for a kubota engine they run for ever. And very economical.

I think with a limit on weight of 300-500kg it would probably be the best option, I am not sure of the HP but there are a couple of Toro mowers festering in the yard that have Kubota engines with pumps fitted. @slim_boy_fat knows a bit about these.

Bob

 

[Justme]

I think with a limit on weight of 300-500kg it would probably be the best option, I am not sure of the HP but there are a couple of Toro mowers festering in the yard that have Kubota engines with pumps fitted. @slim_boy_fat knows a bit about these.

Bob

View attachment 258643 View attachment 258644

Cant see that being close to 40hp.

 

[slim_boy_fat]

@slim_boy_fat knows a bit about these

I do indeed, I spent years sitting on, maintaining and servicing them. Iirc, the biggest problem we encountered with one of them was a leaking injector. Also, ours were 'hand me downs', but very well cared for ones, prior to their arriving with us.

I can also attest the rollers on front & rear of the cutting heads [not brushes like that one ^^] come in very useful when designing/building projects.....

 

[8ob]

Cant see that being close to 40hp.

17.5kw so a match for the direct drive leccy motor, without all the reduction gears etc involved with a tractor PTO and subsequent drop boxes its probably more than adequate.

Bob

 

[8ob]

I will leave this here https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/1334498036...20&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2386202&algv=DefaultOrganic

 

[Bornfree]

A kubota D1703 is 30hp continuous rating at 2800rpm and weighs 148kg dry
A V1903 is 34hp at 2800rpm 180kg
A V2203 is 40hp at 2800rpm 180kg
Or a lighter option is
V1505 29hp at 3000rpm and 110kg.

 

[Bornfree]

Also the perkins 400 series is worth a look
These are very similar to kubota they do 2 3 and 4 cylinder models. We run about 20 of the 4cylinder engines in weidermann loaders some over 15,000 hours I've never seen one worn up yet.

 

[Justme]

To round off this thread.

In the end I fitted a 2.8l engine & gearbox from an Iveco daily.
Runs at about 1400rpm to give 540rpm at the pto via a 1-1 T gearbox.
This seems to give enough power to run the processor & crane.
We used it or a bit at home then took it on a paying job.
Apart from blowing a fuse that I had sized incorrectly all worked well.
Fuel usage was less than expected.

This is the crane in operation.

This is the processor in action