Workshop extraction.

[grim_d]

@WorkshopChris

Too much suck? You must not be married.

I have a vfd for it if it's too much. I'd quite like to have it be able to extract chips etc as well as have a couple of extraction hoods to catch any stray dust all going at once.

 

[Parm]

Is this for home workshop use?

The axial paddle type fans are really the only sort that are acceptable to have the filter after the fan, they’re not at all efficient but good for shavings / heavy sawdust etc. For fine dust from sanding or even a bandsaw the filter is usually upstream of a much more efficient fan on the designs I’ve seen.

I think the M in M-class stands for medium but stand to be corrected. The cartridge types are a bit better but I’d consider some secondary filtration or at least a qualitative test with a torch in the dark to see how well it’s working before you commit to operating tools on a regular basis without RPE. Something with a HEPA filter would be better kept in reserve for the fine stuff.

If it’s industry or education, whole different ballgame, suffice to say it’s expensive to be compliant - it’s commonplace for the extraction to cost more than the equipment.

Spot on Ali

 

[Parm]

It's for business use but I am the sole worker.

I'll do a lot of stuff with heavy shavings. This is what I'm trying to capture. Sanding is just an orbital mirka, it's amazing how little dust escapes it even with modest extraction.

I wouldn't dream of operating without RPE regardless of the extraction present.

M standing for medium...makes sense since the other categories are "L" and "H"

I'm not trying to set up an industrial scale extraction system but rather have something good enough that I can mount outside of the workshop and it still have enough grunt.

As soon as your a business then your extraction system needs to be examined in line with the COSHH Regs. This needs to be done by a competent person. If its a home brew situation a competent tester will be asking many questions.

Then there's the aspect of fire and explosion safety / protection and insurance

It may be cheaper in the short term for home brew but in the long run its way cheaper to get it done properly from the beginning.

And the whole idea of having extraction in the first place is so you don't have to rely on RPE

 

[grim_d]

With all due respect Parm how many one man band workshops are inspected in line with COSHH? I can think of quite a few that HSE have never been anywhere near.

Based on my experience in industry with many, many hazardous materials and substances for very large and prominent companies, it's not very heavily regulated...workshop LEV filters that havnt been so much as inspected for 10 years, never mind changed....which is a bit scary really.

"Competent person"...I've been through all this time and time again having come from an aviation engineering and aviation engineering training background...when it comes down to it, I, or anyone, can class themselves as a competent person. (I'm not saying I am)

What about Trev the builder...who inspects his hoover for compliance sucking up stoor at a customer's house? He does, does that make him competent?

Vague, vague, vague, all to avoid responsibilities and liabilities, at least that's my repeated experience of the term "competent person"

This isn't to say I don't want to do it correctly.

I'm not sure it's "home-brew" as such, it's a commercial grade extraction unit with a fan specifically designed for the extraction of solid material and dust, running through a commercially available cyclone with rated filters, I'm also in touch with a local LEV installation company so that I can have my system tested.

It's not about relying on RPE, in the real world, especially in a workshop that does varied work it's next to impossible to contain all the dust. I've never, ever, seen a woodworkers shop that isn't covered in a fine layer of dust, LEV or not....I'm wearing a mask.

 

[WorkshopChris]

Slightlyfftopic:, but the HSE are/were pre covid having a very big push and purge relating to lev and dust control within the building industry.
I think the days of clouds of dust from construction and worksites are numbered.
https://press.hse.gov.uk/2020/09/24/health-and-safety-executive-cracks-down-on-dust/

 

[mtt.tr]

Slightlyfftopic:, but the HSE are/were pre covid having a very big push and purge relating to lev and dust control within the building industry.
I think the days of clouds of dust from construction and worksites are numbered.
https://press.hse.gov.uk/2020/09/24/health-and-safety-executive-cracks-down-on-dust/

too right i say personally

 

[grim_d]

Not off topic at all. And so they should.

The council (subcontractors) were laying block paving across from my house recently, all cuts were made with a saw without water suppression. Huge clouds going over people's houses.

 

[brightspark]

Not off topic at all. And so they should.

The council (subcontractors) were laying block paving across from my house recently, all cuts were made with a saw without water suppression. Huge clouds going over people's houses.

that's normal round our way one day outside I told them if all that crap covers my vehicles and mucks the windowsills up they will have to get it cleaned off fortunately for them wind blew it the other way

 

[Parm]

Slightlyfftopic:, but the HSE are/were pre covid having a very big push and purge relating to lev and dust control within the building industry.
I think the days of clouds of dust from construction and worksites are numbered.
https://press.hse.gov.uk/2020/09/24/health-and-safety-executive-cracks-down-on-dust/

in the middle of that right now actually

 

[Parm]

With all due respect Parm how many one man band workshops are inspected in line with COSHH? I can think of quite a few that HSE have never been anywhere near.

Based on my experience in industry with many, many hazardous materials and substances for very large and prominent companies, it's not very heavily regulated...workshop LEV filters that havnt been so much as inspected for 10 years, never mind changed....which is a bit scary really.

"Competent person"...I've been through all this time and time again having come from an aviation engineering and aviation engineering training background...when it comes down to it, I, or anyone, can class themselves as a competent person. (I'm not saying I am)

What about Trev the builder...who inspects his hoover for compliance sucking up stoor at a customer's house? He does, does that make him competent?

Vague, vague, vague, all to avoid responsibilities and liabilities, at least that's my repeated experience of the term "competent person"

This isn't to say I don't want to do it correctly.

I'm not sure it's "home-brew" as such, it's a commercial grade extraction unit with a fan specifically designed for the extraction of solid material and dust, running through a commercially available cyclone with rated filters, I'm also in touch with a local LEV installation company so that I can have my system tested.

It's not about relying on RPE, in the real world, especially in a workshop that does varied work it's next to impossible to contain all the dust. I've never, ever, seen a woodworkers shop that isn't covered in a fine layer of dust, LEV or not....I'm wearing a mask.

I can’t quote numbers but I’ve personally done quite a few

collecting and controlling dust is one thing to prevent exposure to wood dust

But doing it in a manner to stop fire and explosion is a whole different ball game.

 

[grim_d]

I can’t quote numbers but I’ve personally done quite a few

collecting and controlling dust is one thing to prevent exposure to wood dust

But doing it in a manner to stop fire and explosion is a whole different ball game.

I'm sure you have, but there's many without.

The woodwork area is self contained away from the area of the workshop where there are sources of ignition, I built a workshop within the workshop.

The ducting will be metal where possible and earthed, all components will be bonded.

Any hot work always has a minimum 30 minutes wait after completion.

Again, coming from aviation, the mitigation of sources of possible ignition has been drummed into me (CDCCL, SFAR88).

 

[Ali]

I don’t know a lot about ATEX / DSEAR, apart from that it’s a highly complicated area that a lot of manufacturers are a bit nervous about and LEV engineers (hands up myself included, though I wouldn’t say I’m highly experienced) will say ‘seek specialist advice’ at the slightest hint of something that doesn’t seem right. My niggling worry is that for smaller establishments I doubt that the advice I’m recommending will ever be sought, and even if it was, the user could end up in one of two scenarios - a) system condemned and strong chance they can’t afford to reinstate it b) system approved by someone who talks the talk but doesn’t understand it as well as they claim (I’ve met too many).

I’ll fail an extraction system if it’s located in an occupied area and there is no provision for explosion relief / open filters etc., because that’s what BOHS told me to do.

What I do understand (I hope) is that it’s as important to think about what will happen in the event that it does explode, even if you’ve designed the system so that chance is very remote. Scenarios like a screw being sucked up, entering the fan and causing a spark.

If you’ve done everything that is ‘reasonably practicable’ for your particular scenario I’d like to think you’re ok, and seeking advice and thinking it out carefully like you are doing is a good thing.

 

[Ali]

And the whole idea of having extraction in the first place is so you don't have to rely on RPE

LEV = yellow
Dust mask = red

 

[WorkshopChris]

What I do understand (I hope) is that it’s as important to think about what will happen in the event that it does explode, even if you’ve designed the system so that chance is very remote. Scenarios like a screw being sucked up, entering the fan and causing a spark.

Small parts always seem to get sucked up at the furthest point so you hear them pinging along the route back to the extractor, then you hear the distinctive sound as something hits the impeller before the wait to see if it's going to land in the middle somewhere or hit the side of the bag and split the plastic.

 

[Keith 66]

Is this for home workshop use?
If it’s industry or education, whole different ballgame, suffice to say it’s expensive to be compliant - it’s commonplace for the extraction to cost more than the equipment.

This may be so in theory but the drive towards Academies run by big "Service" Provider companies means that in the real world corners are often cut. I worked in one such academy (secondary school in other words). This was a new build 7 years old, the workshops were poorly laid out & contruction was late & rushed & there was no centralised extraction for the woodworking machines. And so they fitted Numatic extractors to every machine, these may be ok for hobby use but are useless on a circular saw bench or similar. I fought for 5 years to get it sorted to no avail. The "service" provider wriggled & argued for years, annual tests that were nothing but ********.
We had a damning report from a senior lev consultant but they just paid another one to rubbish it. Finally occupational hygenists did tests & the engineer told me that if it had been a factory the hse would have closed it down. I had a row with senior management & walked out.
Not before i downloaded five years worth of emails to cover my ass.
To this day the workshops are closed down (partly because of covid) But i suspect they will never reopen.
From what i hear from other technicians there are many schools running like this but until someone comes down with a notifiable disease like copd or occupational asthma nothing gets done.