slim_boy_fat
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If space is tight you'll curse it every time you need to maneuver round it - right up to the time you need a part for your 'good' machine and it's on the 'spare'. 
- Thread starter DennisCA
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DennisCA
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I've completed what shaft repairs I can do myself for now. I hope I can get the 6mm broach and bushing this weekend yet, if so I can visit my friend with a hydraulic press and broach the gears. Then I just need to take the shaft to the local shop and have them mill a bigger key slot.
I also had to make a new nut, pictured next to the shaft. Reason for this was I made the thread on the shaft left hand, apparently it was a right hand thread. For some reason I thought it was LH and not RH. I decided to make a new nut instead of removing the thread when I had gotten it firmly on and machined. I do not think it matters much here which direction it goes. I will loctite it to be sure.
I also had to make a new nut, pictured next to the shaft. Reason for this was I made the thread on the shaft left hand, apparently it was a right hand thread. For some reason I thought it was LH and not RH. I decided to make a new nut instead of removing the thread when I had gotten it firmly on and machined. I do not think it matters much here which direction it goes. I will loctite it to be sure.
DennisCA
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With the shaft out of the way for now I decided to look at the motor and the housing. The bearings are not in good shape from what it sounds like, the grease is probably all old and useless so it's like running them dry. So the motor has to come out so I can replace those bearings too.
It's an AEG.
Taking a photo to note the phases before removing the wiring.
This is what it looks like inside, and this is after I scraped out a good amount of oily, greasy metal that seems to have turned into something more than the sum of it's parts (but not in a good way).
Wow, the motor actually has a color, looks like the original deckel grey-green. I really like that tone, I'm still miffed my own paint turned out too dark.
Mostly cleaned up, I will take apart the motor later and check the bearings.
It's an AEG.
Taking a photo to note the phases before removing the wiring.
This is what it looks like inside, and this is after I scraped out a good amount of oily, greasy metal that seems to have turned into something more than the sum of it's parts (but not in a good way).
Wow, the motor actually has a color, looks like the original deckel grey-green. I really like that tone, I'm still miffed my own paint turned out too dark.
Mostly cleaned up, I will take apart the motor later and check the bearings.
DennisCA
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Took the motor apart further, bit unusual design from my perspective... Fans are pressed on from what I can tell, and placed behind the bearings. So I'd have to pull off the fans in order to get the rotor out... I haven't removed the front cap yet so maybe things are different there and that fan comes more easily off. I can see the fan inside there yes despite the cap being on. The motor is apparently open and not closed. I had assumed motors by then were mostly closed and no longer open. But I guess if it was I should have seen radiator fins on the outside.
I might just stop disassembly at this stage and fit new bearings, I hope if I heat the bearings they will drop on without the need for a press. This has worked for me before.
Based on feel the fans are metal and not plastic and not magentic so cast aluminum, I tried with the bearing puller but did not want to put a lot of force on it because I had it grip the outside.
I might just stop disassembly at this stage and fit new bearings, I hope if I heat the bearings they will drop on without the need for a press. This has worked for me before.
Based on feel the fans are metal and not plastic and not magentic so cast aluminum, I tried with the bearing puller but did not want to put a lot of force on it because I had it grip the outside.
DennisCA
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I removed the other cover and that held the key, the fan on that side was much smaller and could be removed backwards through the stator. Now the bearings are off and I am awating a couple of new bearings, someone from sweden was kind enough to gift me a pair of SKF 6206s, which I do appreciate as I just spent 100 euros on the other bearings for the gearbox too.
DennisCA
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Well the motor has been reassembled with the new bearings and put back in place:
I've hooked it back up and it runs really nice and quiet now. Now I just need to reassemble the lower gear shaft and adjust the belt tension.
I've fitted the upper gear shaft with the new and larger 6mm key. I had to hone it to size in order to get a good fit. I honed it until it was 2-3 hundreths of a mm undersize (around .001" to .0015") and that allowed me to push it in most of the way by hand, and I could still knock it out again easily with a punch.
I needed to remove more material to reduce the height of the key sticking out, the depth of the slot was 4mm so there was 2 mm stickout. But I needed to still remove a few tenths (of a mm) in order to get the bearing seat to clear, in order that I can properly reassemble and perhaps sometime time, disassemble the shaft properly.
Now only the gears still remain. As I wrote in the other thread I was not able to broach them. Fortunately there is a shop only 5 minutes away that does wire-EDM who is willing to take the job on, I am bringing them there tomorrow.
I've hooked it back up and it runs really nice and quiet now. Now I just need to reassemble the lower gear shaft and adjust the belt tension.
I've fitted the upper gear shaft with the new and larger 6mm key. I had to hone it to size in order to get a good fit. I honed it until it was 2-3 hundreths of a mm undersize (around .001" to .0015") and that allowed me to push it in most of the way by hand, and I could still knock it out again easily with a punch.
I needed to remove more material to reduce the height of the key sticking out, the depth of the slot was 4mm so there was 2 mm stickout. But I needed to still remove a few tenths (of a mm) in order to get the bearing seat to clear, in order that I can properly reassemble and perhaps sometime time, disassemble the shaft properly.
Now only the gears still remain. As I wrote in the other thread I was not able to broach them. Fortunately there is a shop only 5 minutes away that does wire-EDM who is willing to take the job on, I am bringing them there tomorrow.
DennisCA
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Today I finally reassembled and closed up the gear box.
Both shafts back together. I had a few days earlier put in the lower shaft first. But now I found I had to disassemble the lower shaft again, it was completely impossible to get the three drive gears back in with the lower shaft assembled.
So anyone who owns a Deckel and needs to take this apart, the upper shaft goes back in first, but try and get as many of the components for the lower shaft in place as well before hand, not a lot of space to work with... I would also recommend putting both of the bearings that go in the center rib in before hand, it's nigh impossible to get them back in with a bunch of gearbox compoents in the way of your hands. And expect your hands to get a bit cut up...
Finally able to start putting components back in place and sealing up the front of the machine again:
Chain drive for the feed gearbox, still need to put in the drive shaft for the Y-axis before reassembling the drive belts and pulley.
And the gear box selector is back on. This was a difficult operation, trying to fiddle the thing just so, so that it would go into the locating pins (and it's not that light) while not disturing all the forks on the backside that need to mesh against the gears and selection mechanism. Nevermind that the gasket didn't want to stay in place. I had to resort to vaseline to keep it stuck against the gear selector. I probably tried 40 times or so before I got it....
A rubber mallet was required to get the thing to seat properly on the pins. And I had to put the selector in the speed that put the all the selector forks closest to the middle, which I found was 400 rpm. That's also essential if you want a chance to get everything to seat properly.
Once I got this far I decided it's time for a break... Before leaving I tested changing the speeds and rotating the spindle by hand and all the selector forks seem to have engaged properly.
Both shafts back together. I had a few days earlier put in the lower shaft first. But now I found I had to disassemble the lower shaft again, it was completely impossible to get the three drive gears back in with the lower shaft assembled.
So anyone who owns a Deckel and needs to take this apart, the upper shaft goes back in first, but try and get as many of the components for the lower shaft in place as well before hand, not a lot of space to work with... I would also recommend putting both of the bearings that go in the center rib in before hand, it's nigh impossible to get them back in with a bunch of gearbox compoents in the way of your hands. And expect your hands to get a bit cut up...
Finally able to start putting components back in place and sealing up the front of the machine again:
Chain drive for the feed gearbox, still need to put in the drive shaft for the Y-axis before reassembling the drive belts and pulley.
And the gear box selector is back on. This was a difficult operation, trying to fiddle the thing just so, so that it would go into the locating pins (and it's not that light) while not disturing all the forks on the backside that need to mesh against the gears and selection mechanism. Nevermind that the gasket didn't want to stay in place. I had to resort to vaseline to keep it stuck against the gear selector. I probably tried 40 times or so before I got it....
A rubber mallet was required to get the thing to seat properly on the pins. And I had to put the selector in the speed that put the all the selector forks closest to the middle, which I found was 400 rpm. That's also essential if you want a chance to get everything to seat properly.
Once I got this far I decided it's time for a break... Before leaving I tested changing the speeds and rotating the spindle by hand and all the selector forks seem to have engaged properly.
DennisCA
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Drive shaft for the Y-axis is back.
And the aluminum cover
Drive pulley goes on next
Then I pretty much just had to put back the side covers and the controls
So pretty much back together again now, I refilled the gear box with oil and tested all the speeds and they seem to work. When the vertical head is engage the noise is loud at over 500 rpm, the straight gears meshing in the long reach head really make a lot of noise. I assume this is normal for the long reach head machines. The machine is quiet even at 2000 rpm with only the horizontal arbor.
Also I can tell the epoxy paint I used it getting discolored, patches are developing that seem lighter. I think epoxy paint might be a good primer, but perhaps this is what happens if you try and use it as a finish paint too, might have been better with polyurethane paint for a finish. But I am not going to bother with that. Just an FYI.
And the aluminum cover
Drive pulley goes on next
Then I pretty much just had to put back the side covers and the controls
So pretty much back together again now, I refilled the gear box with oil and tested all the speeds and they seem to work. When the vertical head is engage the noise is loud at over 500 rpm, the straight gears meshing in the long reach head really make a lot of noise. I assume this is normal for the long reach head machines. The machine is quiet even at 2000 rpm with only the horizontal arbor.
Also I can tell the epoxy paint I used it getting discolored, patches are developing that seem lighter. I think epoxy paint might be a good primer, but perhaps this is what happens if you try and use it as a finish paint too, might have been better with polyurethane paint for a finish. But I am not going to bother with that. Just an FYI.
DennisCA
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Been looking at the gear meshing in my milling machine, the vertical spindle is too loud and it's not the spindle itself. It's likely the meshing of the gears. When I had everything apart I noted two shim washers of .5mm behind the gear in the picture below, previous owner or factory setup I do not know.
I took a pattern:
Not a good pattern.
Attempted to remove one .5mm shim and got a better pattern. But too high on the teeth and the noise was unchanged.
I ordered a bunch of shim washers of 0.2mm and I tried a bunch of setups, 0.8mm seemed to pattern the best but still high, still loud and the spindle also felt sloppy.
I decided I needed to see what it looks like inside and stop guessing. I removed the spindle from the vertical head casting and looked inside.
This is with the gear shimmed 0.8mm, look at that backlash.
And 1.8mm of shims, I tried 2mm but that would not turn. A lot less backlash but still not a good setup.
The clicking noise that I hear when rotating by hand, which becomes a loud noise at high speed is still there. To me this looks like the gear to the left, which sits over the vertical spindle and drives it, is too high. it needs to come down, and as it comes down the other gear needs to move away as well. but it's clear that both gears need to be adjusted at the same time in order to get them to mesh correctly.
I think the bottom of the ring gears lower edges are impacting on the bevel gear teeth. And I think these marks (red arrows) are an indication of that. So I have ordered more shim washers for this gear and I will be bringing it down, it looks like it could need to go down quite a bit. The grease pattern above also tells a story of the gear not making optimal contact. I wonder if the gear was shimmed from factory and was lost by the previous owners because this was quite a bad setup, no way Deckel let it out in the world like that.
I took a pattern:
Not a good pattern.
Attempted to remove one .5mm shim and got a better pattern. But too high on the teeth and the noise was unchanged.
I ordered a bunch of shim washers of 0.2mm and I tried a bunch of setups, 0.8mm seemed to pattern the best but still high, still loud and the spindle also felt sloppy.
I decided I needed to see what it looks like inside and stop guessing. I removed the spindle from the vertical head casting and looked inside.
This is with the gear shimmed 0.8mm, look at that backlash.
And 1.8mm of shims, I tried 2mm but that would not turn. A lot less backlash but still not a good setup.
The clicking noise that I hear when rotating by hand, which becomes a loud noise at high speed is still there. To me this looks like the gear to the left, which sits over the vertical spindle and drives it, is too high. it needs to come down, and as it comes down the other gear needs to move away as well. but it's clear that both gears need to be adjusted at the same time in order to get them to mesh correctly.
I think the bottom of the ring gears lower edges are impacting on the bevel gear teeth. And I think these marks (red arrows) are an indication of that. So I have ordered more shim washers for this gear and I will be bringing it down, it looks like it could need to go down quite a bit. The grease pattern above also tells a story of the gear not making optimal contact. I wonder if the gear was shimmed from factory and was lost by the previous owners because this was quite a bad setup, no way Deckel let it out in the world like that.
Milkybars
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There is a slotting head on Fbook (well its a whole mill really) that may fit yours but I am not sure..
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1625683884336396/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1625683884336396/
Carl Wilson
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Really inspiring work Dennis. When I took the motor out of my Harrison Mill I had to pressure wash it prior to cleaning with solvent, it was so filthy. It sits above the coolant sump.
The coolant sump itself was something else - 50 years worth of congealed coolant, swarf and tramp oil. And I am sure there is some new form of life previously unknown to science.
The coolant sump itself was something else - 50 years worth of congealed coolant, swarf and tramp oil. And I am sure there is some new form of life previously unknown to science.
DennisCA
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I believe that won't fit because it's not a Deckel and I remember reading something about them not being compatible with deckels, it's also a copy of an FP1 while mine is an FP2.
DennisCA
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I finally got the new shims, I did not expect it to take this long from Germany, nearly 3 weeks... Today I have adjusted the gears in both directions and currently got IMO, pretty darn nice contact pattern but sadly the noise is unchanged regardless of position of the gears.
I finally tried to start the mill with the drive engaged on the long reach head, but the vertical head gone, and it does make noise, but I put a piece of leather against the bevel gear to simulate load and the noise increased at once and sounded like it does when I run it with the vertical head on. So now I am again thinking it's not the meashing of the gears in the vertical head that make the noise but the spur gears inside of the long reach head. They do have a lot of play and I am told they get loud with only a little wear on them and this is an area that gets overlooked often. I've been given some advice, such as trying open gear lube on them, or trying DLC coating. Or making one gear new from say bronze.
I've coate them in NBU 15 spindle grease for now.
I finally tried to start the mill with the drive engaged on the long reach head, but the vertical head gone, and it does make noise, but I put a piece of leather against the bevel gear to simulate load and the noise increased at once and sounded like it does when I run it with the vertical head on. So now I am again thinking it's not the meashing of the gears in the vertical head that make the noise but the spur gears inside of the long reach head. They do have a lot of play and I am told they get loud with only a little wear on them and this is an area that gets overlooked often. I've been given some advice, such as trying open gear lube on them, or trying DLC coating. Or making one gear new from say bronze.
I've coate them in NBU 15 spindle grease for now.
Carl Wilson
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I shall look forward to further updates. Hope you get the noise issue sorted.
slim_boy_fat
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Have a look at https://www.hpcgears.com/ , I got one of their catalogues recently and they have, or can manufacture, a huge range.
Carl Wilson
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I've Re read what you wrote regarding the gears. It seems someone has dismantled the machine in the past and reassembled it somewhat haphazardly. As you pointed out it is hard to imagine the manufacturer allowing it to leave the factory that way.
DennisCA
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Yeah with the helical gears something there went wrong, wear was not enough to explain it. I had to shim nearly 2mm to get a good pattern. I assume there was a single shim or ring from factory that got lost or something. But the noisy spur gears have no adjustement so that's probably just wear compounded by bad lubrication.
DennisCA
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The machine is basically ready now. Some final adjustements of the gibs and filling up the bottom reservoir with oil and it's ready to go.
I am just installing the one shot lubrication system, it took a while to get a hold of all the fittings and then some didn't fit and I had to order again... and I made some on the lathe too because I got tired of waiting. It was a PITA to fit the manifold to the pump. I wanted to get rid of the 90 degree bend and mount the manifold straight to the pump but it wasn't possible so I had t mount it skewed like this to clear.
Anyway it's almost installed. Need to figure out how to pull the line for the 3rd oil nipple that's on the operator side.
Perhaps like this, I believe it can be made to clear if I can attach it somehow. Guess more holes have to be drilled, which I am not thrilled about.
I am just installing the one shot lubrication system, it took a while to get a hold of all the fittings and then some didn't fit and I had to order again... and I made some on the lathe too because I got tired of waiting. It was a PITA to fit the manifold to the pump. I wanted to get rid of the 90 degree bend and mount the manifold straight to the pump but it wasn't possible so I had t mount it skewed like this to clear.
Anyway it's almost installed. Need to figure out how to pull the line for the 3rd oil nipple that's on the operator side.
Perhaps like this, I believe it can be made to clear if I can attach it somehow. Guess more holes have to be drilled, which I am not thrilled about.
DennisCA
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This saturday I took the first test cuts on my FP2. I finally got all the oil pumping to work, some self-adhesive cable channels worked perfectly to keep the oil tube in place.
Very light passes since I don't trust the setup to hold. I disassembled it soon afterwards to properly dial in the table to the axis of the spindle. My first project will probably be some improvised T-nuts and holddowns for the vise. Ordered real T-nuts online but I might just make some square nuts so I can proceed and don't have to wait for it ot arrive.
Very light passes since I don't trust the setup to hold. I disassembled it soon afterwards to properly dial in the table to the axis of the spindle. My first project will probably be some improvised T-nuts and holddowns for the vise. Ordered real T-nuts online but I might just make some square nuts so I can proceed and don't have to wait for it ot arrive.
