2K Safety - Leason learnt

[slim_boy_fat]

Even seen some quite novel solutions to have a fag while wearing the respirator

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[Parm]

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Yep, a hole drilled in the second de of a respirator

 

[Dcal]

Don’t know about masterclass but happy to share what I know.

From previous experience it’s always got complicated when things are on open forum.

There are three broad groups of substances that folk of the forum often use, these are dicloromethane (paint stripper, highly effective and very good but quickly fatal in the wrong hands / circumstances, usually causes harm very quickly. epoxy based paints (again very good at what they do but precautions required as they are potent skin sensitisers and implicated in occupational asthma. Any isocyanate containing paints (again very good products but also highly potent respiratory sensitisers that cause occupational asthma)

DCM isn’t a chronic hazard, that’s to say it’s effect is usually quick and often fatal

With the two paints, there is no smell or taste or any other tell tale indicators that exposure is occurring. It’s best to think any disease caused is invisible. By the time you start exhibiting any symptoms it’s usually too late as the damage is irreversible. There is no cure.


A little tale.

Few years ago I was asked to look at Europe’s largest accident repair workshop, it’s in Scotland. A young lad of 18 was training to be a paint sprayer, occupational health surveillance picked up he had work related asthma, so an investigation ensued where I was involved. Company were top notch and going above and beyond what was required, no problems identified.

So I expanded the investigation and took a more wider look at the lad and considered interests and hobbies outside work. Turns out that from about the age of 16 he was being guided by his uncle in learning stuff about cars, nothing out of the ordinary here. However the uncle had a poor attitude about doing things correctly and just told the lad to crack on, which he did, without the correct precautions in a home workshop. I inspected the workshop, typical garage at the back of a house in a medium sized estate. No control measures.

The young lad has severe occupational asthma as a result of being exposed to 2K paints at home. At the time his prognosis was that he will probably never work. A very tragic situation that could have so easily been prevented.

Any reputable paint supplier will always (should always) advise that 2k paints are for professional use only, this implies that correct control measures should be employed .

It drives me nuts when people give incorrect advice with little knowledge. It’s not fun having to speak to folk that have been hurt.

Thanks @Parm

This is good information and just what a thread like this needs, however we should recognise that this is a DIY forum and if it is all made to look too difficult some people might be inclined to "just have a go" with potentially serious consequences.

I think if it was shown how simple it is to carry our a risk assessment for a potentially hazardous product it could lead to a better understanding of the risks and hazards and more importantly if they can be reduced to a reasonable level or alternatively if the use of a particular product by a particular individual in their location cannot be safe. (for example someone with asthma, painting inside, with 2k, with no PPE, with limited ventilation and blowing the overspray into a primary school yard full of kids)
Don't care what PPE they get it's just not going to be worth it.

I am the first to admit that in answering questions on here I have concentrate more on the TDS side of thinks and less on the MSDS but to be fair most / all TDS also cover PPE requirements (although not in anywhere enough detail) and I do read and act on them for my own situation.

I am happy to share my experience but I would think it is not typical so not really that applicable (limited use, detached workshop 20m from main dwelling, no close neighbors, access to clean air and PPE, extraction vented away from the work place and compressor intake, no relevant medical issues etc.)
I'm certain I could do more but for the amount of painting I do it seems reasonable to me. Some might say it's overkill but it's my lungs and I vary the PPE I use depending on what I'm doing.

A walk through the process and the answering of any questions raised could only be a good exercise and would certainly add to the available information.

If after that someone doesn't understand the risks and the necessary controls they shouldn't even consider using the product no matter how supposedly safe in is.

I'm not referring to people in this forum and certainly not to those that ask first, but I know some people who would need to be told not drink the paint! (well maybe not the paint, but certainly the thinners)

 

[DennisCA]

So the short of it is, if you wanna work with 2K spray paints, and I guess rolling or brushing too, you gotta have a fresh air mask?

And the mask has to get the air from some remote source, not good enough to have one of those respirators hooked on your belt I guess, as it will just suck in the same contaminated air.

 

[ajlelectronics]

So the short of it is, if you wanna work with 2K spray paints, and I guess rolling or brushing too, you gotta have a fresh air mask?

And the mask has to get the air from some remote source, not good enough to have one of those respirators hooked on your belt I guess, as it will just suck in the same contaminated air.

It is the spray mist that constitutes the danger. For rolling or brushing, it's OK with conventional PPE.

 

[Keith 66]

In my trade as a boatbuilder i used many gallons of west & Sp systems epoxy, both almost identical formulations with bisphenol A base resin & hardeners that may contain amines & polyamides depending on which hardener you are using.
A lot of people think epoxies are safe because they dont smell as much as more volatile polyesters, vinylesters or other 2k paints. But its well known in the boat trade that epoxies can be a potent sensitizer. Most hardeners are ammonia based & we all know how nasty that stuff is. Most guys get away with things for years then get a nasty surprise. My first such lesson was when a dripping hardener pump dropped a dollop of west hardener on my webbing watch strap. I didnt notice for an hour but then it started to burn. I realised what had happened & scrubbed the watch strap with acetone & let it dry The chemical burn on my wrist healed up after a few days so i put the watch back on. The burn came back within minutes. It took weeks to heal. I ended up throwing the watch strap away. For some years later every time i got epoxy anywhere near that wrist the burn would literally come back. Sod that in your lungs.
Look on the wooden boat forum & search for epoxy sensitisation, plenty of fine examples there.
One thing that people forget is that once you have used the epoxy resin or paint its dust may still be a sensitizer for some time after initial setting before it finally cures.

 

[Dcal]

I was replying to this on my phone when I saw Kieth66 reply and I fully agree with it.

It's all a danger.

I assume we don't need to tell folks not to drink it or not to use the hardener as a solvent etc, but I agree the spraying turns it into a different animal with a huge increase in exposure because it is turned into an aerosol. Something a spray gun does supremely well. (Some better than others)

If you are rolling or brushing, the exposure level is much lower but not completey absent.
The risks are the same, the exposure much less, so a proper well fitted mask suitable for 2k (they are available and linked to in this thread) would in my opinion be OK.
If you can smell paint it's not working so get out of the shop and check your kit. The most likely reason is your mask doesn't fit you.

If you have good ventilation, the correct ppe, don't do it often or for long periods I would consider it a low risk activity.
However you need to do your own risk assessment.
Consider the materials you are proposing to use, consider your own health status (eg are you asthmatic, have you become sensitised through previous exposure) and remember you should also comply with the rules in your own jurisdiction.
And of course don't forget to wear gloves and and glasses and cover skin to prevent splashes.

 

[Edward Yemm]

I’ve used 2K only ever for lacquer. I use the following technique:
Hold breath
Spray
Run away.

 

[Dcal]

I’ve used 2K only ever for lacquer. I use the following technique:
Hold breath
Spray
Run away.

This might be why you are not getting the finish you want on your BMW

 

[Edward Yemm]

This might be why you are not getting the finish you want on your BMW

Ha ha! The 2k lays on like an absolute dream even if I am running the air pressure far too low. It’s only the base I have issue with. The clear as fantastic as it is don’t hide the bad base. The 1K RFU clear would probably go on a lot smoother with the air pressure whacked up.

 

[Little Jerry]

Gents

I was hoping someone can school me on a few queries I couldn't find answers to with regards to isocyanates in 2K hardeners:

I am in the process of building a semi down draught spray booth and before I consider using 2k paints want to clarify a few things. Note: I have a dedicated air supplied breathing setup and will have decent explosion proof fan(s) and all the other protective gear, so my questions are more towards the isocyanates that could be vented to atmosphere.

1) Are the isocyanates that get released to atmosphere when spraying contained in the overspray mist itself? So a good paint booth filter system will trap the majority of isocyanates?
2) Or do the isocyanates get released as fumes? Can they be trapped / removed?
3) If they cannot be trapped / removed, assuming a fully sealed booth with proper spray booth filters, would the amount of isocyanates released be negligible if spraying say one / two panels at a time?
4) Are isocyanates relatively harmless once cured? What is the approximate curing window?

Appreciate any guidance.

Adam

 

[carbon]

Welcome Adam

I would suggest reading the attached pdf, it may not be relevant for Australia. But possibly Australia has something similar

Edit: I’ve also found something about handling isocyanates from Australia and have included that

 

[Little Jerry]

Thanks mate, that information was great.

If I am reading the documents correctly, it appears the isocyanates are in the paint mist so an effective filtering system will be the major factor in limiting venting to outside atmosphere from paint booth.

 

[Keith 66]

For filtering fumes & VOC's you need activated carbon filters, effectively you are dealing with gases that will pass through any conventional filter. The lifespan of carbon filters is relatively short as once they have absorbed all they can hold they cease to work. You may notice this when using a carbon filtered mask, its good for a little while then you start to smell the fumes as its full & isnt working any more.
I heard yesterday about a friend who has just been diagnosed with ocupational asthma, like me he was a boatbuilder & machined a lot of hardwoods, He also did a couple of years spraying superyachts in Germany with 2k, probably Awlgrip or similar. Probably did it cos it was top dollar, Now hes paying for it.

 

[Little Jerry]

Does anyone have any general guidance on the likelihood of an explosion caused by solvents and light fixtures?

I have purchased IP65 weather / vapour proof LED fixtures and will have sealed conduit protecting the wiring going into the fixture. If I have a well vented room, spraying 2K with a HVLP gun, painting a panel or two at a time and don't turn the lights on and off when spraying am I right in assuming I have severely reduced any explosion risk?

 

[mike os]

Does anyone have any general guidance on the likelihood of an explosion caused by solvents and light fixtures?

I have purchased IP65 weather / vapour proof LED fixtures and will have sealed conduit protecting the wiring going into the fixture. If I have a well vented room, spraying 2K with a HVLP gun, painting a panel or two at a time and don't turn the lights on and off when spraying am I right in assuming I have severely reduced any explosion risk?

the risk is relatively low in normal use as vapour mixes need to be fairly specific to actually ignite. if all your electrical/ignition sources are suitably rated then your risk is low

 

[Keith 66]

The thought of open flame heaters anywhere near a spray gun frankly scares me. Back in 84 i was working fitting out a big 86ft yacht at Tilbury docks. The boat was completely tented in & we had two huge diesel fired spaceburners. One day one of them had a flame out & its flame failure device didnt operate, the pump kept going spraying diesel onto the red hot burner. It filled the tented shed from end to end, There were 8 of us working there & the thick white diesel smoke was so thick we could not see a thing outside the boat. It was a case of "Everybody off the boat now" & we felt our way outside. It took ages to clear. I hate to think what would have happened if it had ignited. I doubt any of us would still be here.

 

[eSCHEn]

nope.


plus , to be fair, i was bored and slightly trolling.

both the above situations i stated where in lab conditions at school, not in my home garage. sorry, couldnt resist.

You should indeed feel sorry. Another member whose response I have had to remove hit the nail on the head - what if someone who doesn't know betters reads it and has a go? Dumb post.

 

[Little Jerry]

Gents, similar to the lighting question I had, are explosion proof fans really necessary for spraying 2K in a negative pressure booth if spraying one or two panels at a time?

I have bought those Andreae concertina exhaust filters and carbon filters so I am hoping next to no solvents should pass through to the fan anyway?

I had an explosion proof industrial 240v fan all lined up for purchase but the seller is messing me around so has me questioning whether it really worth the trouble if I have good filtration.

 

[Little Jerry]

The above post is now irrelevant for me - the seller got their act together and I have ordered the flame proof sealed industrial fan.