7016&7018 electrode use

[TechnicAl]

I think that in inexperienced hands the 6013 (or some 6013s) are easier to use because you can angle them so the flux is touching the workpiece. You really should keep a gap with a 7018 and it aint easy for a beginner.

 

[PTvor]

I think that in inexperienced hands the 6013 (or some 6013s) are easier to use because you can angle them so the flux is touching the workpiece. You really should keep a gap with a 7018 and it aint easy for a beginner.

Isn't it also true that you need to be able to keep a tight, constant arc for a Vodex or Elga P44 and neither are fantastic for the bodger but they are all-positional rods and can do much in the hands of someone who's capable?

From my point of view, lo-hy used properly seems like a total mission to be avoided unless big bucks are involved, in which case the handling procedures are lost in the noise. You just accept that there's a discipline you are working under.

Moderately lo-hy, fairly low-hy and chuck 'em in the airing cupboard and pull 'em out for a superior result are not what I thought lo-hys were about.

 

[TechnicAl]

Vodex and the like are really hybrids, part rutile part low hy. Vodex (for explanation purposes) are say 60% Rutile 40% LH and some 7018s such as the Bohler rods mentioned are say 40% Rutile 60% Low Hy.
So yes there are some 6013s that need a gap, and yes they probably would be a bit of shock for someone used to Fincords for example

Ive always thought there should be another group for the Hybrids. You can usually tell by the LRS classification, they are either better than the rest (6013) or worse than the rest (7018).
Traditionally they were designed for ship yards so they could meet the class but with better welding characteristics as the old 7018s were pretty difficult to use.

 

[Drains]

From my point of view, lo-hy used properly seems like a total mission to be avoided unless big bucks are involved, in which case the handling procedures are lost in the noise. You just accept that there's a discipline you are working under.

Moderately lo-hy, fairly low-hy and chuck 'em in the airing cupboard and pull 'em out for a superior result are not what I thought lo-hys were about.

You're misinterpreting the lo-hy thing. There is huge variation in rods from different manufacturers and within their ranges. Some lo-hys are easy to store, require very little drying, work like a charm. Also though, as Asmeix says, get to work, open a pack of rods, burn em, go home. Not expensive and easy to do.
If you only need a couple of rods downhand or horizontal then 6013s are fine, but if you have a few positional welds, using lo-his makes life much, much easier. They should be dried to spec as many lo-hi's just don't work well if damp (apart from the porous/brittle welds), but it's not all about weld strength as the fast freeze characteristics are just a bit useful.

 

[shenion]

I knew I had some 3.2mm (1/8") 7018's and they were too hot for most of my uses. Going through my rods, I found some Lincoln Electric 7018-AC 2.4mm (3/32") rods.

They have been in a sealed PVC pipe and I did not bother to put them in my oven (it takes an hour to warm up.) Here's the results:

My Airco has no amp scale on the dial; just 0-100. I was on the 20-220A range. The -XX numbers are the dial positions. All welds done DC+ (DCEP).

Top left is a 2.4mm 6013, light drag.
Left middle is a 7018 run at a low current, small gap. There is porosity at the start, weld is tall and the slag was near impossible to get off.
Bottom left, upped the current to 45, better, less porosity at the start and slag still difficult to get off edges.
Top right current increased to 50. Much nicer and slag popped right off.
Bottom right played with speed and angle a bit.

You would think 50% on a 20-220A range would be 100A but I don't think it is linear.

They are different to use and I will need to play more to get used to what I'm seeing. I do remember the weld pool was easier to see (weld pool = yellow, slag = orange).

I probably bought those and promptly blew holes in 1/8" steel as I was still learning. The 6013's will definitely go down to lower amps.

Also, will need to retrain my eyes. On the right two runs they looked completely flat, I thought the weld was sagging down. Looked like it was spattering like crazy while welding, but came out clean.

The 7018 welds did come out smoother. The 6013's always had a bit of orange peel texture on the surface.

Note the rods are marked 7018-AC, the -AC designation is for lower OCV buzz boxes. My Airco runs about 90 OCV, so not needed.

I could try some on AC if people wish. May try them fresh out of an oven this weekend.

If you have a way to store the rods and keep them dry, 7018's should work fine. I think putting them in an oven would have helped the porosity at the start and allowed a lower current range.

I have a desiccant bag in the end of the PVC pipe I store them in.

Edit: I have read 6013's are better on mildly dirty steel. I have used them on painted metal where I did not want to bother removing the paint. I was surprised by the results. 7018's supposedly want a cleaner joint.

Also, the 7018's seemed to produce less smoke than the 6013's.

 

[decepticon]

I do remember the weld pool was easier to see (weld pool = yellow, slag = orange).

must been missing something whilst welding as i never bother watching/studying the weld pool (except perhaps a bit when going vertical up) as its covered in slag anyway. its all about the feel/rhythm
great thread about 70xx series rods.
it was mentioned earlier that hy-lo rods can only be reheated only a certain amount of times. i normally stick a carton or two in my rod oven and use them as and when needed, so probably reheated 10-15 times what is the limits for these rods?
cheers

 

[snowcat]

If you only need a couple of rods downhand or horizontal then 6013s are fine, but if you have a few positional welds, using lo-his makes life much, much easier. They should be dried to spec as many lo-hi's just don't work well if damp (apart from the porous/brittle welds), but it's not all about weld strength as the fast freeze characteristics are just a bit useful.

You and me both know however that rods with the same AWS classification vary in characteristic's hugely....

even a single mfr may have 20 6013s and the same in 7018s depending on use, and most will make a 6013 with a fast freeze characteristic, worth looking past the AWS no, as I think T/A touched on.....

 

[Drains]

You and me both know however that rods with the same AWS classification vary in characteristic's hugely....

even a single mfr may have 20 6013s and the same in 7018s depending on use, and most will make a 6013 with a fast freeze characteristic, worth looking past the AWS no, as I think T/A touched on.....

Quite true. The problem for the user is wading through the blurb, trying them out and working out what does what. That is the challenge! Really, my advice above about the variation in 7018s is valueless without specifying makes and numbers.(Lincoln hyrod 7018 is a goodun)
In general though you should expect a faster freeze from a 7016 and 7018 than from a 6013. It's fair advice, if not perfect.

 

[TechnicAl]

The Lincoln Hyrod 7018 is a hybrid as I mentioned earlier. I know I developed it. You can usually tell the hybrids by the black glassy slag and often they are limited to -30 CVNs and 10mls H2.
I think at one time Lincoln Europe sold over 20 different 6013s.........the only limitation is the amount sold.

 

[Delgado]

Interesting thread...

I was always led to believe (Generally speaking) the order of fastfreezingness (I'm claiming that one) went;

Celulistics, Rutiles, Basics with the 7016 being about the same as a rutile and the 7018 being slower due to the iron powder in the flux?

 

[TechnicAl]

By and large youre right but its very easy to change. Take a 6013 for example, make a thinly coated one, a medium coated one and a heavy coated one. Youve instantly got a positional (fast freeze), an all positional and a downhand only.

The aforementioned Hyrod 7018, thicken up the costing and youve got Hyrod 7028 (a low hy + iron powder rod).

You may have to adjust the Manganese / Silicon content but its that simple (I was going to put easy but it isnt )

 

[PTvor]

This is a curious electrode, the ESAB Filarc 35. It's described as a 7018-1 but has only 65% recovery, so no iron powder in the flux and they don't mention hydrogen anywhere in the blurb.

http://products.esab.com/Templates/T041.asp?id=53612

It doesn't seem particularly easy to get hold of.

Is it true that the main difference between 7016s and 7018s is usually the thickness of the flux coat and the the flux is the same, they both usually have iron powder?

 

[Drains]

Is it true that the main difference between 7016s and 7018s is usually the thickness of the flux coat and the the flux is the same, they both usually have iron powder?

Apparently so. The main difference seems to be the 7016 is better for rooting (it gets in there better - less flux to get in the way) and can be a bit more versatile in position.

 

[medroberts]

Hi every body,
God so much info..... thankyou everybody. Going back to my opening post...... Could somebody recomend a good 7018 rod for me to try(make,type, ease of use etc ), considering I have no experiance using this type of rod and using my pick-hill 210 amp oil cooled welder ? Once again thanks for all of the help............

 

[Delgado]

Is it true that the main difference between 7016s and 7018s is usually the thickness of the flux coat and the the flux is the same, they both usually have iron powder?

I always thought that 7018 had some iron powder and 7016 didn't, (although the link you posted would seem to suggest otherwise), AFIK apart from the reasons outlined by Drains, they're also prefered for open rooting because the weld pool freezes faster, making the back of it less prone to problems with porosity etc.. that might be an issue with 7018.

 

[Delgado]

Hi every body,
God so much info..... thankyou everybody. Going back to my opening post...... Could somebody recomend a good 7018 rod for me to try(make,type, ease of use etc ), considering I have no experiance using this type of rod and using my pick-hill 210 amp oil cooled welder ? Once again thanks for all of the help............

Any of the top makes should be fine (ESAB, BOHLER,LINCOLN,EWM Etc..), just check that they work on AC and your machine has the OCV to burn them.

 

[decepticon]

Dont really think you can go by peoples recommendations. i could name a rod then the next person could name one, then someone else name another and so on. we could all swear by the one we use being the best but there are very few people who have tried all the different main brands, with ac and dc and in most common positions.
think my point is to get down to your local welding shop ask them what rod they recommend for your ac machine, buy a small quantity of different rods and spend some time burning them and make your own judgements.
i recommend phoenix very highly but not tried many others and you may struggle to get hold of them anyway
phoenix are a 'budget' arm of bohler
cheers
neil

 

[medroberts]

Hi ,
Could somebody post pics of 7016 & 7018 runs so I can see the weld bead finish ? Just like to add ,great support for somebody wanting to learn more ! Many thanks, Med.

 

[TechnicAl]

Is it true that the main difference between 7016s and 7018s is usually the thickness of the flux coat and the the flux is the same, they both usually have iron powder?

Sometimes
I would say in general 7016s have less Iron Powder than 7018s. They all have some because it makes them weld better, they are usually thinner coated so less iron powder means more room for the "refiners" ie the bits that make the weld metal better.
This is the crux of the matter, the descriptions are loose and are applied morally more than technically.
You rarely see a 6012. The difference between 6012 and 6013 is technically one is bonded with Sodium Silicate the other with Potassium. I dont know of one that only uses one, its always a blend. So you never see 6012 because people are more aware of 6013s and wont use 6012s because they dont know what they are. Probably 50% of all 6013s should be classified 6012.

 

[Drains]

Hi ,
Could somebody post pics of 7016 & 7018 runs so I can see the weld bead finish ? Just like to add ,great support for somebody wanting to learn more ! Many thanks, Med.

Even if anyone could be bothered it wouldn't be very informative - they'd just look like runs of weld. There are some 6013ish rods which give a very smooth bead but have such as soft arc you'd not use them if you wanted guaranteed strength, and there are cellulosics (6011/6010) which give a horrible looking weld but nice and strong (when capped properly).
It's not bead finish you should be interested in, but ease of use and strength.