medroberts
Member
- Messages
- 28
Drains,
which one would you recomend for ease of use ?
which one would you recomend for ease of use ?
- Thread starter medroberts
- Start date
- Messages
- 6,332
I don't think there especially budget just another acquisition of the bohler T-put/UTP Avesta group which are now huge, The T put side of the co generally has electrodes and wires developed for a more specialist market, which id guess is why bohler wanted them..
Last time I had one of bohlers field agents out there was talk of them buying yet another group, although I cant remember who.....
The problem with someone recommending something is that you've got to be able to find them. Generally you can find whatever you want on the WWW, but it's not much good if you can only find places that sell them by the 15Kg or they do sell small packs and vac-pacs but the postage is a fiver.
If you have local welding suppliers, ring round them and say you want a vac-pac of 7018s to try out, you want a major brand like Bohler, Oerlikon etc. and they have to run on an AC machine and see how they can help. Then jot down what they say and look it up on the WWW to make sure that it will work on your Pickhill. I think most 7018s will run on AC machines, apart from buzz-boxes (oil-cooled boxes with a high voltage setting should be OK), but you don't want to be caught out.
decepticon
Member
- Messages
- 193
perhaps budget is the wrong term but its how the LWS sold the brand to me, i was told that they are a cheaper product compared to mainstream bohler's (like for like 7018 or 7016) who as a corporation wanted to be able to compete in the market below the general bohler range.
I've got an idea it may be the same as the electronics industry where you buy a spec. You can buy 1N4007 diodes guaranteed good for 1000V or you can buy 1N4001 diodes good for 50V. They've been making them for a good 40 years and the manufacturing process is well sorted out. Probably any 1N400X diode is good for 1000V, but if you buy 1N4001s and they die rectifying 250V, you have no come back on the maker, they never said they were good for more than 50V. These days there's virtually no difference in price between 1N4007s and 1N4001s, so you may as well buy the 1N4007s. Some people stick to the idea that 1N4001s are for low voltage and it's somehow wrong to use 1N4007s for that.
With main brand white box rods, they might be exactly the same as a premium brand they push, they might be seconds, they won't have the approvals and they are generally a bit hazy about the exact spec. They can use them as a way to get rid of their substandard production, but they are probably so well geared up that they don't make much rubbish. The lack of approvals stops them undermining their premium brands. If they sell crap and allow their name to be associated it will degrade whichever brand they use. These marketing types have a difficult job, selling stuff they don't understand and couldn't understand, without telling lies they can be caught out in, and certainly not getting whoever they work for sued. From the buyer's point of view, no one would want to have to stand up in a court action worth half a billion over the collapsed welded steelwork in a skyscraper and explain that they had saved a few bucks on electrodes but everyone knew what shysters these rod makers were and they were perfectly entitled to assume that the cheapo range from the same company they used were exactly the same as the expensive stuff, but in a different box, and anyway, some of their blokes said they were a very nice burning rod.
I suppose from Boehler's point of view UTP would have had loyal large customers to be weaned onto the new brand and the way to do it wouldn't be to suddenly ship coathanger wire with dirt on as UTP and expect their punters to flock to Boehler.
I've used half a box of Phoenix 6013s in a pink box for £20 and they are nice.
PTVor
what youre saying is true. The white box stuff are the same electrodes, they are not seconds or rejects. They just dont have Approvals and at one time they didnt have test certs but I think that has changed.
Its a way of selling excess production and competing with cheap imports.
However, there are also Distributor products, which are rods / wire bought from manufacturers and boxed in the livery of the Distributor. They use their name and their box yet claim the approvals etc still apply. They dont, there is no traceability and no guarantee that if another manufactuer comes along with a better price they will change.
These are the products everyone should be wary of.
what youre saying is true. The white box stuff are the same electrodes, they are not seconds or rejects. They just dont have Approvals and at one time they didnt have test certs but I think that has changed.
Its a way of selling excess production and competing with cheap imports.
However, there are also Distributor products, which are rods / wire bought from manufacturers and boxed in the livery of the Distributor. They use their name and their box yet claim the approvals etc still apply. They dont, there is no traceability and no guarantee that if another manufactuer comes along with a better price they will change.
These are the products everyone should be wary of.
asmeix6g
Banned
- Messages
- 299
i think your all reading into this WAY too much!! rods are rods! 6013s are great for round the farm... if your getting more professional use your 7018s... so yes there are 7016, 7014's blah blah blah but in the general scheme of things the rods you use are 6013,6010/11 and 7018... simple! if your WPS specifies something more specific then use it but all this talk is getting out of hand imo
Care to explain how using a 7018 over a 6013 makes you any more professional? I would have thought that a 'professional' would use the correct/best rod for the job in hand, whatever that may be, no?
decepticon
Member
- Messages
- 193
not sure why 'farm' welding/work should be generally regarded as sub standard-a weld is a weld and if its on machinery, fencing or other on a farm a good weld and suitable rod should be used properly
this is a very good informative thread (even if it has gone slightly off topic) which quite alot of people have added some very technical knowledge to, if you dont like it, its gone over your head or you dont care about it then leave others to enjoy the thread
I disagree, I think it's been a useful discussion, e.g. your point that you can buy a vac pac of 7018s which will be completely up to spec and they make better stronger welds and work better out of position. Well worth remembering for a special job or paying job. Lo-hys are not necessarily solely for people welding nuclear submarine hulls together.
What I've got from this is that they are well worth giving a whirl.
- Messages
- 6,332
The lads from bohler always say its down to product range and being able to produce products in one factory and sell them across the group, T put produce per example the seamless extruded cored wires( although it comes in bohler livery), which bohler as far as I'm aware could not..... although I'm not an expert on there dynamics just an end user..
Snowcat..........dont listen to Reps, by and large they havent a clue. Especially when they are in the UK and the T-PUT factory is in Germany.
I worked there for a while and my good friend is their MD.
The transition from Bohler to T-PUT is complex so I wont bother trying to explain but the products are made in the same plant.
Drains
Yeah, nah.
- Messages
- 7,718
- Location
- Sefton, South Island, NZ
I agree. It's pointless for people who don't need to use them to debate about 6013/7016/7018. If you want to bang in a weld, use a decent 6013, if you're welding strong and positional all day use a 70xx and a quiver, if you've some fancy gaps to fill and whatever on a pipe or two, 6010 etc.
No point in people being offended about a 6013 being described as non pro or agricultural. It's not true, but it's not far away from true either.
Asme, you're right to imply folk should stop fannying about, but it's also an interesting thread, and people like to learn! (even if they don't need to)
Just considering the 6013.........
you can get Fincord M which put down a pretty weld with no spatter, you can touch weld with them and basically get a good weld with a little practice. But you wont get much penetration.
or
Theres VODEX which will need to hold an arc, the weld appearance isnt good, there will be loads of spatter But you WILL get penetration
Ignoring mechanical properties and their abilities in different positions there are differences in 6013s
Im suprised asme would say such a thing, as a professional welder I would have expected him to be commenting on the differences rather than "rods are rods".
Oh well
you can get Fincord M which put down a pretty weld with no spatter, you can touch weld with them and basically get a good weld with a little practice. But you wont get much penetration.
or
Theres VODEX which will need to hold an arc, the weld appearance isnt good, there will be loads of spatter But you WILL get penetration
Ignoring mechanical properties and their abilities in different positions there are differences in 6013s
Im suprised asme would say such a thing, as a professional welder I would have expected him to be commenting on the differences rather than "rods are rods".
Oh well
asmeix6g
Banned
- Messages
- 299
Right! Delgado, i make that statement because some people on this thread have been ooh you need a 350c rod oven to ever have a lo hy in use... etc etc... if you want some rods you can just have knocking about and use as and when i.e not that often and use on any set with adequate results a 6013 is ideal.
When i say bout more professional work im on about pipework and stuff like that! how many pipes do you root with a half pack of 6013's youve had lying around??
asmeix6g
Banned
- Messages
- 299
Yeh a weld is a weld, i see patching up an old escort body, hanging a set of gates and doing full MMA pipework EXACTLY the same.
asmeix6g
Banned
- Messages
- 299
Hi technical, i know you really know your stuff, so im not trying to in any way offend you. its just the OP asked a question when i replied i got cut down straight away with my answer. i know rods ARENT rods, i try to comment but i get told how im wrong to use lo hys for all my work, or how i need a 350c oven with me and such...
i guess im annoyed with being told im wrong by people who listen to a rep and read the bumf posted on the consumables website but who have no experience.
i think theres only so much you can get from reading on the back of a pack of rods....
TBH ASME, I agree with most of what you've been saying, and I know that you know what you're talking about. All I'm saying is that I don't think it's quite a simple as "If you're getting more professional then use your 7018s".
I mean, I think that it's important to point out (to others that might read this thread who don't know) that there's other considerations aswell; application, material thickness, material type, joint cofiguration and fit up, access (ie. are you gonna end up with a glove full of flux if you have to bend them), etc., and of course welder preference.
If we're talking pipe, then I've seen plenty of pipe (amongst other things) professionally welded with 6013, obviously not high pressure stuff, but does that make it any less professional than exactly the same pipe welded with a 7018 for no other reason except the welder was more comfortable using it?
Or, for example, take the previously mentioned Murex Vodex 6013, were they not used extensivley in ship yards?
I don't dispute that as a professional welder you're gonna need to use Basics on some jobs, what I'm saying is that rutiles still have there place in a welder's arsenal, can be, and are used in a professional environment.
I'd hate for us to get into a situation like in the states (from what I've seen) where all new welders think that If they don't use a 7018 for everything more involved than gates, fencing etc, then the world is somehow gonna end, without actually knowing why they're using the rods that they're using, and the drawbacks and limitations of each.
Don't know, but I'd be sure to shake the straw out of the box and make sure that there were no chickens living in there before I did.
