737 Max8. Safe or not safe?

[Rig Pig]

I heard some kind of air crash investigator being interviewed on radio 4 a couple of days ago, he was very careful to say it's too soon to say for sure, we're just speculation etc.

but he said the same as posted above, there's 2 angle sensors to stop the plane going into a stall nose up which could have pulled the nose down... that fit with radar etc. which showed it going up/down faster that it should have, and also fits with the previously crashed done

he also said it's odd that there's only 2 sensors because an faulty reading could cause something like this... there's normally at least 3 sensors so if the computer gets one odd reading it ignores it and sticks with the other two

the system is new compared to the smaller plane (normal 737 vs 737max) when they made the plane bigger they had to add it (I'm not sure if he didn't say why or I just forgot) also said the crews were not trained with these new systems, hot to turn it off etc.

I've been on a helicopter that did something similar, all 3 autopilot systems failed simultaneously as we were about to land & the man on the sticks was out of his depth... fortunately the captain grabbed it in time. I don't have vast faith in the over computerised setups.

 

[skotl]

Both Canada and the USA have grounded these planes it was announced this morning due to new info.

Did anyone else hear the ALPA (Airline Pilots Association) rep on Radio 4 this morning, around 08:40?

He was gibbering on that the planes were perfectly safe at his airline (American Airlines) because they could switch the AoA off and that the AA pilots were "better trained". I'm not an expert but it came over to me as total arrogance, that he and his colleagues could cope with whatever happened on the 737-8s, whereas pilots from other companies / countries could not.
He also said that any crew who felt uncomfortable flying on the 737-8 wouldn't be forced to - yeah, right...

Overall, he came across as an apologist for Boeing - bet he won't be back on tomorrow morning, arguing against the FAA ruling...

 

[TechnicAl]

Theyve all been grounded I think I heard on the News.....but I wasnt really listening

 

[colnerov]

Did anyone else hear the ALPA (Airline Pilots Association) rep on Radio 4 this morning, around 08:40?

He was gibbering on that the planes were perfectly safe at his airline (American Airlines) because they could switch the AoA off and that the AA pilots were "better trained". I'm not an expert but it came over to me as total arrogance, that he and his colleagues could cope with whatever happened on the 737-8s, whereas pilots from other companies / countries could not.
He also said that any crew who felt uncomfortable flying on the 737-8 wouldn't be forced to - yeah, right...

Overall, he came across as an apologist for Boeing - bet he won't be back on tomorrow morning, arguing against the FAA ruling...

Hi, Yes the Americans can be very partisan, apparently they have a saying "If it isn't Boeing, I'm not going".

Colin

 

[fizzy]

I have a bit of flying experience in fixed wing and helicopter. Nothing commercial though but reasonable knowledge I think

I have to be honest when the first crash occurred I immediately though - 3rd World airline - got to be pilot error. Then this crash happens! Pilot has 8000 hours so pretty experienced.

It is worrying when a mere software update can possibly fix such a drastic problem.

The trouble is pilots have forgotten - or never learnt - how to actually fly! I am talking proper seat of the pants stuff. It seems they just can't cope without the computers. They forget the basics. Instead of turning the autopilot off and ramming the throttles open whilst getting the nose down they start running through all their procedures to fix a faulty computer system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447

This accident should never have happened. The pitot tubes froze up which meant the computers had no idea how fast the aircraft was travelling. The VERY experienced pilots ended up stalling the plane from which it never recovered - a private pilot used to flying a little Cessna would never have made these errors.

Proof of this can be seen when you see some accident reports - Cessna crash - pilot experience 12,000 hrs - hours on type 4. That is a retired airline pilot who has bought a Cessna.

To sum up - yes the plane is faulty - but pilots should also be able to manually fly it - unless Boeing have taken away all control from them.

 

[johnik]

I have a bit of flying experience in fixed wing and helicopter. Nothing commercial though but reasonable knowledge I think

I have to be honest when the first crash occurred I immediately though - 3rd World airline - got to be pilot error. Then this crash happens! Pilot has 8000 hours so pretty experienced.

It is worrying when a mere software update can possibly fix such a drastic problem.

The trouble is pilots have forgotten - or never learnt - how to actually fly! I am talking proper seat of the pants stuff. It seems they just can't cope without the computers. They forget the basics. Instead of turning the autopilot off and ramming the throttles open whilst getting the nose down they start running through all their procedures to fix a faulty computer system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447

This accident should never have happened. The pitot tubes froze up which meant the computers had no idea how fast the aircraft was travelling. The VERY experienced pilots ended up stalling the plane from which it never recovered - a private pilot used to flying a little Cessna would never have made these errors.

Proof of this can be seen when you see some accident reports - Cessna crash - pilot experience 12,000 hrs - hours on type 4. That is a retired airline pilot who has bought a Cessna.

To sum up - yes the plane is faulty - but pilots should also be able to manually fly it - unless Boeing have taken away all control from them.

that ^^^^ in a rather large nutshell is the problem, on a lower level, look at cars these daze, gizmo,s have taken away the need for skill, one day they will be trying out driverless cars.....oh yea, it,s already here.

 

[jimbo84]

Agree with too much reliance on computers these days. The only manual flying being done is during take off and landing and autopilot being turned on around a minute or two after takeoff. Some of those landings are done automatically so in an X number hour flight, one of the pilots will get a few minutes hands on manual flying.

Reliance on the computer is fine and has no doubt made things safer but when it says no the humans need to be able to say yes, and that seems to be the problem nowadays.

 

[Seadog]

AvE has aired his thoughts on the matter -

 

[Matrixx]

The whole control system is now software based, I work with guys who code the software (on other planes) and they tell some chilling stories, if a software update can make them safer then it points to a software issue?

 

[ajlelectronics]

I have a bit of flying experience in fixed wing and helicopter. Nothing commercial though but reasonable knowledge I think

Me too, 150 hours logged before giving it up...

The trouble is pilots have forgotten - or never learnt - how to actually fly! I am talking proper seat of the pants stuff. It seems they just can't cope without the computers. They forget the basics. Instead of turning the autopilot off and ramming the throttles open whilst getting the nose down they start running through all their procedures to fix a faulty computer system.


To sum up - yes the plane is faulty - but pilots should also be able to manually fly it - unless Boeing have taken away all control from them.

All agreed. This fault appears to be with the software version of our faithful old stall warner. Instead of shaking the stick and/or giving a horn warning, the designers want the aircraft to respond automatically. So the pilot is climbing, the AoA sensors don't like it and respond by forcing down the nose. Pilot responds by pulling back and the nose goes back up. AoA sensors don't like it and force the nose down again. Rinse and repeat. Looking like the accident vertical speed trace?

I don't have any knowledge of the 737 electronics, so can't say if that is because the autopilot remained engaged or if it does that regardless. Either way it appears that the aircraft flew itself into the ground under software control.

I REALLY don't like this fly by wire fetish. Give me mechanically or at least hydraulically linked controls everytime.

 

[TechnicAl]

My brother was a Navigator in Vulcan Bombers....he told me that he had flown with Pilots who were reading a book on how to fly the thing.

 

[More Amps]

Hi, Yes the Americans can be very partisan, apparently they have a saying "If it isn't Boeing, I'm not going".

Colin

Personally I'd be more concerned about arriving than going...

 

[slim_boy_fat]

Personally I'd be more concerned about arriving than going...

They do say it is better to travel hopefully than to arrive. But in these circumstances, it'd be largely academic.
A sad business for all concerned.

 

[CompoSimmonite]

I watched a short video about Air Force One and that there are always a fleet of 1980's executive Citation jets on standby within an hour of the president at all times in case of emergency and AF1 can't be flown. The reason is the jets are old technology and therefore less vunerable to the electrical glitches, EMR from atomic blast, etc.

 

[slim_boy_fat]

The reason is the jets are old technology and therefore less vunerable to the electrical glitches, EMR from atomic blast, etc.

That's comforting.....

 

[CompoSimmonite]

That's comforting.....

At least it means in the event of the US being attacked the president can still launch their missiles to destroy what is left of the world !

 

[colnerov]

At least it means in the event of the US being attacked the president can still launch their missiles to destroy what is left of the world !

Which he probably couldn't do anyway because an EMP can knock out even the simplest of electrical equipment.

 

[Pigeon_Droppings2]

Sounds like someone took an ancient airframe (30-40 years old)....and strapped hugely more powerful engines on the wings. In itself not an issue but it sounds like these engines have a different centre of gravity to the original design engines....more power + wrong weight distribution = more likely to stall maybe?

This came from an interview I watched earlier in the week....was a pilot with decades of experience (I think on the 737!)

Personally I avoid any "new" planes for a few years...remember someone once thought square windows were an amazing idea!

I have to say both the A380 and the Dreamliner are both amazing to fly...makes older planes feel very dated. These new planes are just so quiet!

 

[ajlelectronics]

Yes, apparently the engines are forward of the acceptable c.o.g. range which means that it is not able to fly normally. The computer system allow the physics to be altered so that it actually will. Scary stuff.

 

[p0689109]

Seems they are getting like car design wherby modern car steering systems don't self centre like old, which used to be part of the MOT by the way. And that is because of the design and shape of the cars now means they do not allow the steering geometry to allow it. On top of which most new cars then have to have power steering which, if electrical, can mean loss of any steering at speed in the fast lane say!
At the airline I worked at for nearly 30 years the computer age aircraft young trainee pilots do all their "flying training" on the simulators and the first time they fly in a pilot seat for real is on their first commercial departure!
Scary eh!